Antitrust attorney Megan Granger ’11 joins Admissions Dean Natalie Blazer ’08 to discuss how she built a successful legal practice at a preeminent global law firm. Granger shares what she wishes she had done differently in law school, her advice to young associates hoping to rise through the ranks, and the secret to longevity in a legal career.
Transcript
NATALIE BLAZER: Like, I see your eyes light up when you talk about cartel--
[LAUGHTER]
MEGHAN GRANGER: I love cartel.
NATALIE BLAZER: --and mergers and stuff. And that's great. And I'm sure people out there have other things like that.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
This is Admissible. I'm Natalie Blazer, Dean of Admissions at UVA Law. I am so excited about today's show. Not only does my guests today have so much wisdom to impart, so much invaluable advice for future law students and lawyers, but it is also the first time in Admissible history that I have had a family member, of sorts, in the studio. We'll get to that in a moment.
My guest today is UVA Law Class of 2011 graduate Meghan Granger. Meghan is a partner in Weil, Gotshal, & Manges antitrust group in Washington, DC, although she's moving to the London and Brussels offices next week on a two-year secondment.
Her practice focuses primarily on mergers and acquisitions, while also providing general counseling on all aspects of antitrust law. Meghan has worked on matters across a wide range of industries, including technology, retail, food and beverage, energy, and agriculture, including some litigated cases you may have seen in recent headlines, such as Microsoft's acquisition of Activision, the game studio behind Call of Duty, and Meta's acquisition of VR fitness app Within.
While at UVA Law, Meghan served on the editorial board of the Virginia Law and Business Review. She earned her BS in Commerce with distinction from the UVA McIntire School of Commerce. Welcome to the show, Meghan.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Thank you for having me, Natalie. I hate those little intro bios.
[LAUGHTER]
NATALIE BLAZER: Well, I'm glad you said that, because I did provide a relatively short bio for you, considering all of the incredible accomplishments you've had in your career. I know you would hate for me to go on and on, so I'm just flagging for our listeners that it really cannot be overstated how impressive your job is and how hard you work. So I just want to get that out there.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Oh, thank you.
NATALIE BLAZER: So thank you so much for making the time. So the icebreaker slash fun fact for today is a rather fun one. Do you want to tell the story, or do you want me to tell the story?
MEGHAN GRANGER: I'm actually interested in how you're going to tell it, especially because I suspect I'm going to be doing most of the talking today, too.
NATALIE BLAZER: OK. So I'll tell most of it, and I'll let you chime in. So Meghan and I first met nine years ago--
MEGHAN GRANGER: Just say 9 or 10 years ago.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah, 2015, I believe, back when I was still working for my law firm, which was Weil, Gotshal, & Manges, same as Meghan's. I was in Weil's New York office the entire time Meghan was in the DC office, and I was in a completely different practice group so we actually never met for the first several years of practicing there, despite both being UVA Law grads. Then Weil invited us to come down to Charlottesville for a UVA Law recruiting trip.
MEGHAN GRANGER: It was, like, the usual, annual trip that no longer happens.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yes, which is really sad.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Because it was so much fun.
NATALIE BLAZER: It was so fun. For those who don't know, attorneys from law firms would come down. They would interview law students in person, take them out--
MEGHAN GRANGER: It was this time of year. It was OGIs. It, like, the first two weeks of August. It was exactly this time of year.
NATALIE BLAZER: You're right. It was August. We had a great time. I had not met you before, obviously, we went to CNO for dinner.
MEGHAN GRANGER: We had a good chat because you knew some of the people in DC. And so I was like, oh, and then-- but I didn't know your interest in going to a different side of the legal world at the time.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah, I guess I probably didn't even bring that up.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Yeah, yeah.
NATALIE BLAZER: But I did leave the firm a couple of months later to do law school admissions work, which was my passion, which, by the way, I figured out doing all those recruiting trips. I just love being at the law schools. Well, a few years later, I got a job offer at Georgetown Law, so I moved to DC. And one of my first nights out in DC, I met this guy named Michael.
MEGHAN GRANGER: [LAUGHS]
NATALIE BLAZER: And after our very first meeting, Michael texted me and said, hey, so I googled you, and--
MEGHAN GRANGER: [LAUGHS]
NATALIE BLAZER: You-- it turns out you and my sister went to UVA Law and you worked at the same law firm. And first of all, I was like, I love that he's clearly playing no games.
MEGHAN GRANGER: He completely texted me about the next day.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah, completely. Well--
MEGHAN GRANGER: Lo and behold.
NATALIE BLAZER: Lo and behold, I ended up marrying that person, who is Meghan's brother.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Yes.
NATALIE BLAZER: So long before I met my current husband, I met his sister, and we, like, hit it off, and so--
MEGHAN GRANGER: What's just so funny is there was no connection of how you guys met.
NATALIE BLAZER: Zero.
MEGHAN GRANGER: You guys met just completely by chance.
NATALIE BLAZER: Totally.
MEGHAN GRANGER: And then the connection to Weil and everything came out later. And I do remember him texting me and being like, do you Natalie Blazer? I'm like, I think she left to go to Columbia Law.
NATALIE BLAZER: So funny.
MEGHAN GRANGER: He's like, oh, no, she's in DC now. And it's just-- it's crazy.
NATALIE BLAZER: Oh my god.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Totally crazy.
NATALIE BLAZER: Just makes me so happy. And so that's why I said family member of sorts, by marriage, in the studio, first time ever. It's very exciting for me. So having said all that, now that I did way too much talking, Meghan--
MEGHAN GRANGER: Long story.
NATALIE BLAZER: --let's dive into your story. When did you first know that you wanted to be a lawyer?
MEGHAN GRANGER: Yeah. I didn't. I've never really felt like I actively wanted to be a lawyer. In fact, I really don't like litigious situations. If I have an uncomfortable conversation with counsel on the other side, I hang up the phone and I feel badly. Like, I do not like those situations. So in my mind, growing up, lawyers are always sort of litigious. And you see the courtroom shows and everything, so I never wanted that.
So I just knew that I wanted to do something that allowed me to work with businesses and business strategy. And I was just also, to be totally honest, not good at math, at least not like the kind of math that would have sent me to Wall Street. So, yeah, as like some people, law became sort of process of elimination.
NATALIE BLAZER: But also, I think that's really good for people to hear. You don't have to be a litigious, confrontational person.
MEGHAN GRANGER: No.
NATALIE BLAZER: You can actually be uncomfortable in those situations and still do a really good job, because a lot of it is actually coming to an agreement with people and being good with people.
MEGHAN GRANGER: And figuring out what your client's objective is and always being-- the conflict to win is not always the right stance.
NATALIE BLAZER: Right.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Yeah.
NATALIE BLAZER: So you took some time off between college and law school. I do have to point out, if you had gone straight through, we would have overlapped.
MEGHAN GRANGER: We would have.
NATALIE BLAZER: By, like, two years.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Right.
NATALIE BLAZER: So this is how we did not meet until many, many, many years later. So what did you do during that time?
MEGHAN GRANGER: Yeah. I mean-- so I will just disclose this up front. I was a Double Hoo, so it means that you went to University of Virginia undergrad, and then came back for law school. And I had fun in my undergrad years, I would just say. I didn't exactly get my act together to take the LSAT during my fourth year.
And as I mentioned, I just didn't really click with finance. I spent a summer in New York and worked at PR. And it just sort of was by process of elimination, you know what? The right step might be to just get a job in law as a paralegal at a law firm for a couple of years, which is what I did, and moved to DC with many UVA alums and also had fun up there.
NATALIE BLAZER: So when you were there, I mean, working as a paralegal, even though law might not have been the most intentional choice, you're surrounded by lawyers. You're dealing with the law. You kind of decided, OK, this does make sense for me on some level.
MEGHAN GRANGER: That's right. I mean, my paralegal job ended up being the best thing for me because it led me to antitrust law. And we can talk more about why I think knowing what area of law you want to practice is really important. But that was really what led me back to law school, was my exposure as a paralegal to this one area of law that I completely fell in love with was really the reason why I ended up going to law school.
NATALIE BLAZER: And that is so important, also, on the converse because if somebody had gone and worked as a paralegal before deciding to jump into law school, they could have realized, like, I don't really see myself doing this, and so they could save themselves a lot of time and money and all of that.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Absolutely. And there are a lot of different types of jobs in law, but on the firm side, having exposure to what it's like to work in a law firm can be really valuable before deciding to go to law school.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. So what do you remember about applying to law school?
MEGHAN GRANGER: I never got my act together on the LSAT. Like, I canceled two of my scores, maybe only--
NATALIE BLAZER: That's so surprising--
MEGHAN GRANGER: --kept the third one--
NATALIE BLAZER: --to me, by the way.
MEGHAN GRANGER: It just wasn't-- I never really struggled with standardized tests before in my life, so this was really difficult for me that I was having a hard time with it. My biggest Achilles heel was logic games, which I don't think are even on the LSAT anymore.
NATALIE BLAZER: They are now-- they've now taken them off as of this month. Yes.
MEGHAN GRANGER: So I studied at the Arlington public library because it just was sort of disciplining to be in a space that was sort of standard. And I didn't have an iPhone at the time. I remember I had a kitchen timer. Like, this is how old I am. And I would just do the logic game sections over and over again. Sort of the only way to go about it, I think, is just more and more practice.
NATALIE BLAZER: Totally. So how did you decide on UVA, then, after all that?
MEGHAN GRANGER: Well, obviously I'm biased. And that's why I'm here. But I really do believe that UVA was then and still is now unique among the top law schools. It really gives you the best caliber of academics and job opportunities, which are just both so completely important, with the other leg of the stool, which is the student body that creates that team atmosphere.
It's much actually like the culture that drew me to Weil. It's very important that when we hire, for example, candidates don't have sharp elbows, and I just-- I really think UVA Law encourages an atmosphere where students don't have those sharp elbows, and they work together and try and collaborate, which in law is a lot of your job, day to day.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yes. It goes back to what we kind of mentioned earlier. People think it's just--
MEGHAN GRANGER: Adversarial.
NATALIE BLAZER: Right, but it's actually a lot about--
MEGHAN GRANGER: Teamwork. Teamwork.
NATALIE BLAZER: And cooperating and being in the conference room late at night working on things. I don't about you, but I remember when Weil was recruiting me as a young associate, they were like, oh, UVA Law. We consider ourselves sort of the UVA Law--
MEGHAN GRANGER: Of law firms.
NATALIE BLAZER: --of law firms. I'm like, the culture--
MEGHAN GRANGER: Sounds like something Weil would say.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. But I mean--
MEGHAN GRANGER: But I kind think it's true, to be totally honest.
NATALIE BLAZER: I do actually think it's true. I mean, across offices, that was-- I never thought I would stay seven years. And we're going to get way into your career. But, like, it's important to the people you're around and that they're well-rounded--
MEGHAN GRANGER: You can't really have one without the other and have a sustainable career.
NATALIE BLAZER: Agreed. So tell us a little bit about your experience while you were in law school, like any things that stick out, favorite memory, class, professor, anything like that.
MEGHAN GRANGER: So you asked me to be ready to tell you what my favorite memory was.
NATALIE BLAZER: [LAUGHS]
MEGHAN GRANGER: And I gave you sort of a glib answer, but I think it's kind of important because it explains how I approached law school and, really, I think, an important lesson from it.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah.
MEGHAN GRANGER: So honestly, just really being honest, my favorite day was graduation.
NATALIE BLAZER: [LAUGHS]
MEGHAN GRANGER: And honestly, that's because I-- sort of like the LSAT, I just never clicked with law school. UVA Law as a place I continue to believe is an excellent law school, and frankly, if I'm going to do law school again, that's what I would choose. The things that came naturally to me in undergrad just didn't in law school. And looking-- and at the time, I really couldn't figure out why.
NATALIE BLAZER: Interesting.
MEGHAN GRANGER: And looking back on it now, I really think I can pinpoint it. And it's-- I approach my studies very individually. I would study at home. I wouldn't go to the library. I didn't join any formal or informal study groups. It was just me literally reading the material.
And now, given how I practice law today, which is talking things through with people, testing arguments-- it's so clear to me why I really didn't engage enough with the material in the correct way, because law is about thinking through the logic and what your arguments are. And it was my biggest mistake. I mean, I had certain activities that I would-- I did Innocence Project, Law and Business Review, but I just wasn't totally plugged in on the academic side.
NATALIE BLAZER: Well, then it's sort of a-- it sort of compounds on itself. If you're not studying with your classmates, you're kind of not engaging in other areas. And so I totally get that. And by the way, when I first got to law school, I was also very much an individual-- like, how I like to study, and da, da, da.
MEGHAN GRANGER: It's worked for me. It's worked--
NATALIE BLAZER: It's worked for me.
MEGHAN GRANGER: --for me up until now.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. Right? But these two-- there were two or three people in my section who were just so nice. And they invited me to their study group. And I just remember being really uncertain, but I did it. And then I'm like, whenever I had to explain something to them or they were explaining it back to me, I was like, oh, I don't actually this.
MEGHAN GRANGER: I don't actually understand it.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yes.
MEGHAN GRANGER: 100%, yeah.
NATALIE BLAZER: So that really-- that sort of changed-- turned it around for me. But I love that-- I mean, I don't think everybody has to have the number one best amazing time in law school. It got you to an incredible place in your career, and I love that you reflect on things that you would have done differently.
MEGHAN GRANGER: It was altogether a great experience. I-- again, as a caution, perhaps, for other listeners who are Double Hoos, don't make the mistake I did, which was going up to DC and hanging out with all my high school or high school, college friends, constantly hosting people on the weekends. People, oh, let's go back to Charlottesville. Let's stay with Meghan. It was great fun, but it was--
NATALIE BLAZER: That makes sense.
MEGHAN GRANGER: --honestly somewhat of a distraction at times.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. So you were kind of-- you had other great networks kind of close by.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Correct, yeah. I just didn't prioritize the UVA Law network enough.
NATALIE BLAZER: Got it.
MEGHAN GRANGER: And I really think-- and this gets to advice for people in their career as well, but those connections you make in law school can be really, really helpful going forward.
NATALIE BLAZER: So that's a great segue, actually, because the way career development happens now in law school at UVA Law is rather different, at least from what my experience was. So when you were a student, how did you decide on your first and second summer? Did you work with career services? Like, how did that work?
MEGHAN GRANGER: I really did enter law school knowing I wanted to do antitrust law, and that was because as a paralegal, I had worked in that area of law. I worked on a shipping cartel matter, which was just an incredibly factual application of law. So it's really, was there an agreement between competitor A and B? Like, did they go golfing together and decide to fix the prices of so-and-so chemical being shipped from Asia to the US?
I mean, that was reading documents and interview transcripts. It's almost sort of forensic. And I really enjoyed that as a paralegal. And I was like, I think I might like this antitrust law thing because it's just actually not so much law. It's more the facts and understanding the facts and how the business works.
And then after my first year of law school, or when I was applying for 1L positions, I had a friend who was an honors paralegal at the Federal Trade Commission. And he said, Meghan, if you like cartel work, you really would like mergers.
And so my first 1L summer, that was with-- I got a position in one of the merger shops, Mergers II, at the FTC. And again, that was sort of fortuitous, just through a friend. And I worked that summer on merger investigations. And--
NATALIE BLAZER: So cool.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Just totally fell in love. I was, like, oh, forget cartel work, although I still like cartels. Mergers are just even better because it's really about understanding how businesses approach their interaction with customers and consumers in the market, competitive dynamics. It's incredibly factual. There's a legal framework, but it's always applied to different facts.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. I think a lot of why you've had such a long and successful career, aside from working extremely, extremely, extremely hard is you genuinely like the things you just talked about.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Oh, I love it.
NATALIE BLAZER: Right? So if you're just dragging yourself through--
MEGHAN GRANGER: It gets me out of bed in the morning.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah, well.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Honestly, I kind of mentioned the word "sustainability" in a career that's very demanding on your time. You have to care about what you're working on.
NATALIE BLAZER: You do. You do. That's absolutely a necessity.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Critical?
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah, critical. OK. So we talked about how your interest in antitrust was sparked, so then talk about how did you get to Weil, Gotschal, specifically?
MEGHAN GRANGER: So it was that 1L summer-- you asked if I worked with career services, and I don't actually remember really working with career services. That 1L summer-- you would bid for law firms, like, rank law firms you wanted to try and get an interview with when they came on ground, back-- back how quaint that was. And so in order to try and figure out law firm A from law firm B, I spoke to some older UVA Law people and just kind of got their view, which I think is probably how people still do it, which is like, are people happy there? Do you any first- or second-year associates who actually like the firm--
NATALIE BLAZER: Yes.
MEGHAN GRANGER: --and are happy? So it was a little bit of that kind of grassroots info gathering. And then I remember the conversation. I asked an attorney I worked with that summer at the FTC. I said, which law firm do you respect most when you're sitting across the table from outside counsel? When they come in and give you a presentation on why a merger shouldn't be a problem, like, whose word do you really respect?
And he said two law firms. He said Weil and this law firm Howrey, which is an antitrust boutique. And so I really set my sights on both of them. He was very nice and flagged my resume, which-- another thing for people is how the world works. Who you know-- you should never be ashamed to have someone flag your resume and get it-- just get it in front of someone's eyes who can just say, hey, at least make sure we meet this woman. And that's all he did.
NATALIE BLAZER: You had to do the rest.
MEGHAN GRANGER: I had to still do on-grounds interview, but just-- I made it on the schedule, I suppose is how that worked. And the rest is really history. It was pure luck that I ended up at Weil because Howrey, unfortunately, had some financial difficulties after the-- it's actually really sad. This was the financial crisis years. And thank goodness, because I would have-- had I taken their offer, I would have lost-- not had a job the following spring. So--
NATALIE BLAZER: I mean a lot of that was going on in those years. And so it was--
MEGHAN GRANGER: It was.
NATALIE BLAZER: --luck of the draw.
MEGHAN GRANGER: I remember people would have their offers either deferred for several months or even revoked in some cases. It was really, really bad.
NATALIE BLAZER: So you've been at Weil now since 2011?
MEGHAN GRANGER: Well, technically '10 if you count my summer--
NATALIE BLAZER: Technically '10.
MEGHAN GRANGER: --associates.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yes, that's true. OK, so wow, you're going on 15 years almost.
MEGHAN GRANGER: 13.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Yeah.
NATALIE BLAZER: So what's a typical day like as, quote-unquote, "big law" attorney?
MEGHAN GRANGER: So I, again, have my sort of short answer for you, which is that there is no typical day. There are typical types of days, depending upon where I am on a case. And just to take a step back for a second, antitrust is competition law, and so there are laws around the world that prevent competitors from conspiring with each other to set prices or rig bids. And that seems pretty obvious to most people as to why that could be a problem.
A second bucket is stopping a dominant firm from acting in a way that's anticompetitive. Some of you may have seen the DOJ's win against Google last week, which is a good example of that. They alleged that Google basically monopolized search via exclusive agreements with Apple and--
NATALIE BLAZER: I believe the judge who wrote that decision is a UVA Law grad.
MEGHAN GRANGER: I believe he is, too. So that's the second bucket that the antitrust covers. And then the third is when two companies have to merge or decide to merge, the government will review whether the combination could be anticompetitive, whether it could substantially lessen competition. And I really focus on that third bucket.
And so the reason why my answer as to why there's no typical day is that way is because on a merger case, we get brought in very early, sometimes, when there's just a kernel of an idea that two companies who are competitors might merge, or company A acquires company B.
And so we're sort of just trying to read the tea leaves as to whether there could really be antitrust risk and the government would really want to review that merger in detail, where as oftentimes, there are other days where we're further-- the government's actually reviewing the deal, and we're much deeper into an investigation. It looks more like litigation, where there's discovery and depositions and things like that.
So my typical day, because I'm a partner, I'm supposed to cover a lot of those preliminary assessment ones, which is really doing the factual research, talking to the clients, and trying to come up with an answer as to what we think the risk level is, crystal A ball. But there are also times when I'm very deep in an investigation, sometimes with multiple regulators around the world, and it's much more all-consuming.
The past couple of months have been fun for me. I've been kind of juggling a lot of early stage cases, and so it's just been different than it was a year ago, when I was deeper in an investigation.
NATALIE BLAZER: So I don't even think I thought to ask this question before, but now I'm very curious. Like a lot of young attorneys will start off in what we call big law.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Correct.
NATALIE BLAZER: And I want to define that. Let's define that first, and then I'll get to my question. So when you hear the term "big law," what does that mean, really?
MEGHAN GRANGER: I don't know. I mean, well, I don't believe that there's a cut off, but it just typically-- people think of it synonymously with Am Law 250, let's say, which is just a larger law firm, usually one that has more than one office is--
NATALIE BLAZER: That's kind of how I--
MEGHAN GRANGER: --sort of how I think about it, but I think there's a mid-level where you're more regional. Big-law big law is-- typically has offices around the world.
NATALIE BLAZER: Right. And so for you at Weil, we talked about there's no real typical day, but there's typical types of days.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Right.
NATALIE BLAZER: How has-- what's the biggest change since you made partner from how you spend your time?
MEGHAN GRANGER: [LAUGHS] It's the fact that the buck stops here. You never get to turn off when you're the partner. And sometimes, oftentimes, a client just has to have a partner's advice. It's just something you can't delegate to a council or an associate. They have to be able to say to their management or their board, we spoke with a partner at our outside antitrust counsel, and they told us we think a, b, c.
And so when they need that advice, it can come on a Saturday night at midnight. And it very-- not often, but that happens. And so the biggest change is just that you just have to always be the backstop and have to be available to give that advice when needed. So--
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah.
MEGHAN GRANGER: I do so much more talking than I'm used to.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah.
MEGHAN GRANGER: And that's also on calls. I'm fortunate to have worked with partners who would encourage me to talk as an associate or as a senior-- more of a senior associate. But when you're on calls with the client, they would want to hear from the partner, typically.
NATALIE BLAZER: Totally. So what do you-- what would you say you love the most about your job?
MEGHAN GRANGER: So when I really say I love my job, like, I really, actually love my job.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah, I know you do.
MEGHAN GRANGER: I'm not saying that. I mean, you have to love it to work this hard sometimes. But really, the thing I love most is I am just not bored. I'm not bored.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah.
MEGHAN GRANGER: In the past year alone, I've worked on investigations of amusement parks, of midstream oil and gas companies, oilfield services, AI. Right now I'm looking at a couple consumer goods deals, which I love. I love going into the grocery store or, like, Target and looking at the products on the shelves and who the competitors are next to them and actually just viewing it like a consumer. And that's just really fun.
The other thing that I am so grateful for is the fact that my job, especially over the past couple of years since Brexit, really has an international component. There are many more regulators around the world than just the US regulators who review deals and have investigations against a lot of clients, so this opportunity to go over to London and work out of our London office-- I'll be spending one week a month in Brussels as well--
NATALIE BLAZER: So cool.
MEGHAN GRANGER: --working-- yes, working on the regulatory process in front of the European Commission and the UK Competition and Markets Authority and learning those processes is really fun. And trying to get a deal to land within the time and the contract that you have to complete the regulatory clearances at all of these different regulators around the world, and then oftentimes, you'll trigger in a bunch of Asian countries, Australia, and New Zealand-- it's just-- it's like this one-- a big puzzle, like a big game. And the strategy behind that I find really fun.
NATALIE BLAZER: And I feel like your job-- it touches so much on real life, like you said. You're going into Target, and you're looking at, what can I buy here? What can't I buy here? Or the amusement parks, the video games, Facebook, Google-- it's just things that any layperson would understand how that's going to impact their life, which I think is really cool.
MEGHAN GRANGER: It's true. And sometimes, the really fun ones are things that you don't even know, like you don't think about very often, and they're some massive business, like the resin that goes into water bottles, or something like that.
NATALIE BLAZER: Whoa, yeah.
MEGHAN GRANGER: You know, you end up working on something that you just realize is completely pervasive in your every day.
NATALIE BLAZER: And you become a sort of mini expert on all these different--
MEGHAN GRANGER: Industries
NATALIE BLAZER: --industries. Yeah. That's really cool.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Because in order to make the argument, you have to understand the facts, and you have to understand how the business works. And there's just-- that's just so much fun because you get to jump into-- like I mentioned, we have to produce a lot of documents to the government. It really looks a lot like discovery, so you to look at documents from the C-suite level in these companies and how they're approaching their marketing strategies, their pricing, their new product strategies. I mean, it's just a really interesting window into how businesses operate.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah, yeah. How would you say UVA prepared you for what your job is like in big law?
MEGHAN GRANGER: I think that the big law bar is not as large as some people might think, particularly in specialist areas, so reputation is really everything in this job. I think UVA Law places a lot of weight on personal integrity, so I would view that as being a formidable but reputable opponent, and interpersonal skills.
Being able to create a rapport with someone is a really important skill in this job. And clients are also really attracted to those qualities, too. And they ask around about your reputation in the market. So if a client is going to hire you for a matter that can turn into a multi-year investigation, they want it to be with someone that you can-- that they really want to spend time with.
And it gets back to what we talked about earlier, which is, I just think that UVA Law students tend to have the interpersonal skills that are required to be successful with clients, if you're with opposing counsel, with regulators.
NATALIE BLAZER: There are so many schools where everybody is smart and hardworking and all of that, but there's that kind of little something extra, I feel, about UVA, the UVA brand, so to speak. So I kind of want to talk about the legal market. You and I have alluded to-- well, we said directly how us finding our jobs was very different than it is now. So how has the landscape shifted over the last however long, 13 years?
MEGHAN GRANGER: The biggest change really happened with COVID. It was really quite amazing how law firms just sort of pivoted to work from home and everything became virtual. And I know every industry has now more reliance on virtual meetings than in person, but it's just-- I can't remember the last time I just dialed into a conference call. I really miss those days sometimes because I don't really want to be on camera.
NATALIE BLAZER: Oh my god, yes, the conference call.
MEGHAN GRANGER: The call!
NATALIE BLAZER: And you had your code.
MEGHAN GRANGER: With your code.
NATALIE BLAZER: You had your own little code.
MEGHAN GRANGER: With your PIN.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Sometimes when someone sends it, I'm like, wait, what? I have to use certain numbers?
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. [LAUGHS]
MEGHAN GRANGER: So I mean, that's just the practical reality. But I-- the biggest things that is the hangover from COVID is this work-from-home thing. And I'm hearing, even in the market, that Weil is actually sort of off market in terms of the number of days that we require in the office, which is four.
NATALIE BLAZER: Wow.
MEGHAN GRANGER: A lot of the big law firms require three. And I'm hearing that is an important factor to some students, which I have mixed opinions about.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. Wow. I didn't realize that that was the case. I mean, I have my-- I have a lot of thoughts about that, but I feel like you and I would definitely agree that in-person time in your law firm is so critical to how you are going to-- for your own professional development, for your own opportunities that you get, for just the more-- you talked about how you were a solo studier in law school. Like, my thinking when I hear that is like, that sounds just miserable because--
MEGHAN GRANGER: Well, I was miserable.
NATALIE BLAZER: Well, you're doing all the hard work, and you're not getting any of the social benefit.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Exactly.
NATALIE BLAZER: Like, when I think of my days at Weil in New York, of course we're working hard--
MEGHAN GRANGER: Long hours.
NATALIE BLAZER: --but then we're going to grab a coffee or we're walking to the subway together at 10:00 PM or whatever it is. Like, you get those interactions that you don't get.
MEGHAN GRANGER: I think that's right. And I think that a lot of firms view three days to be enough to get those interactions. And that might be true for some people. To be honest, I mean-- I just-- when I think of the practice of law in terms of just collaboration, it just makes a lot of sense to be in person.
So the biggest change, really, is that some firms are very lax on work from home. There are some firms that are like, you never have to come to the office if you don't want to.
NATALIE BLAZER: Wow.
MEGHAN GRANGER: There are a lot of firms in the middle. And then there are some firms that are really back towards most days in the office, like Weil. We're four out of five. And I'll tell you, I schedule a lot of things for Fridays when I have a little more flexibility and then catch up on work on the weekend. If you want to go and have-- do an appointment or get something done that you don't want to do on a Saturday, it's great. I feel like I have a lot of flexibility.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. I think 4 is a good number just because, yeah, people have life things that sometimes have to happen during business hours. So what about the job market? We talked about how it was when we were coming up in the world. Can you even begin to explain what it is now?
MEGHAN GRANGER: No, I can't. And I say this as an exasperated hiring partner. So this is my third season as-- I'm a cohiring partner of our DC office. And even over the past three years, it's shifted. I don't know what' going on. I just want the NELP guidelines to come back. And just make it more contained because this constant, year-long recruiting thing I just think produces anxiety on both sides.
NATALIE BLAZER: Such anxiety. And just for those who don't know, the NELP guidelines-- basically, they prohibited employers from reaching out to law students before certain dates for the exact reason Meghan just said. Let the students get their feet wet in law school, actually start to learn the law, and then same thing with the following summer. They all came together at the same time. And I think, actually, they went away because of antitrust concerns, ironically.
MEGHAN GRANGER: No, no, no, I think that actually is why they went away.
NATALIE BLAZER: But now it's-- you could be a 1L, and you're stressed out because you don't have your 2L summer job.
MEGHAN GRANGER: No, you don't even what your 1L summer job is, and you're already, like, hearing that your classmates are getting 2L offers.
NATALIE BLAZER: Correct.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Which is just bonkers.
NATALIE BLAZER: It is. And again, like, you were fortunate to what you wanted to do coming into law school.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Yes, so fortunate.
NATALIE BLAZER: But that's not that common.
MEGHAN GRANGER: No, it's totally the outlier. I consider myself completely lucky and not the norm. You have a much easier time if you know what you want to do.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. So I think that's actually a great piece of advice for people, is just to think about that before you get to law school, knowing that you are going to have to make some of these job decisions. Now, look, nobody is-- you are, I would say, an outlier in that you've stayed at your firm for this long and you've made partner and you've been there-- that's not entirely common, just because a lot of people, frankly, like, don't have the stamina and the work ethic that you do. I'll just say that.
But so I do want to make sure people know the job you get your 2L summer-- that doesn't mean that's your job for life, but it's a big, important part of your law school and professional experience. So if you're going to have to commit to that sometime in 1L year, it's good to just have a general sense of what you're interested in.
MEGHAN GRANGER: You're just going to be a more desirable candidate, I have to say, if the people you interview with can see where you fit in. And so when you come in and you say, I don't know. I have no idea if I want to do litigation or corporate work. It's like, well.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. Yeah. Those are two--
MEGHAN GRANGER: You're not drawn to something?
NATALIE BLAZER: Those are really different.
MEGHAN GRANGER: And because the practice of big law is specialized. Yes, some firms-- don't get me wrong. I appreciate that there are firms that have rotations in summer and rotations even during your first and second year. And that's great, also, for getting people exposure to different areas, but it will make it easier. I'm not saying it's impossible if you genuinely don't know, but being able to talk about what you're drawn to in a genuine way is a good thing.
NATALIE BLAZER: I will also say, like, one thing that I appreciate about you, Meghan, is you don't hide the ball from people who are looking to work at Weil and specifically antitrust that it's going to be a lot of work. Like, I remember when I was a summer associate at Weil, we-- I mean, they used to-- you know--
MEGHAN GRANGER: [LAUGHS]
NATALIE BLAZER: --basically throw you a parade just for being a summer associate. It was a lot of lunches and dinners and outings and Broadway shows and limos down to Brooklyn to eat--
MEGHAN GRANGER: Really?
NATALIE BLAZER: --to eat-- oh, yeah. Well, this was 2007--
MEGHAN GRANGER: Oh, that's fair.
NATALIE BLAZER: --so this was pre-recession.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Pre-recession, pre-everything.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. But I mean, they really made that summer a lot of fun. And of course, we did work, too, but I feel like sometimes summers like that give you the impression that, um-- well, let's just say that's not what legal practice is like.
MEGHAN GRANGER: My philosophy in the DC office is very much that you will know what it's like to be a junior associate based on your summer experience. I don't think that it benefits you or us if we pretend that it's something that it's not.
NATALIE BLAZER: Agreed.
MEGHAN GRANGER: And to be honest, the most successful associates enjoy the work and love digging in during their summers because we integrate them as full team members on our cases and really give them the real assignments. I'm not-- I can't speak for other firms, but from what I hear, that's not the case in every summer program.
NATALIE BLAZER: So we've talked about this a little bit, but just in case there's anything you wanted to add, what skills, traits, qualities are you looking for?
MEGHAN GRANGER: So I think that the most successful junior associates in particular are those that really take control of their career and are honest with themselves about what they want professionally. And I was kind of thinking of an analogy, to give a shout out to my husband and daughter, who do exist.
NATALIE BLAZER: Aw.
[LAUGHTER]
MEGHAN GRANGER: But they play Nintendo Switch every night. And I can hear them talking about the different keys to get to the next level. And they-- sometimes, they even watch YouTube videos that explain how you beat the level and all this stuff. And I'm thinking to myself, that is sort of how we as high achievers have approached our academic careers, up until we go to a law firm, which is that if you work hard, you get the grades, you know what the formula is to get to the next level.
And I think that what millennials, and now Gen Zs, have gotten a bad rap for is seeming entitled for that. We tend to think like, oh, well, we did what was necessary to get to the next level, so why am I not on the next level? And they're not thinking more proactively about the fact that the criteria for what gets you to the next level is no longer set. It's no longer clear.
NATALIE BLAZER: It's not a given--
MEGHAN GRANGER: It's not a given.
NATALIE BLAZER: --that just you're going to do x, y, z, and you're going to get there, and that somebody's going to open the door for you.
MEGHAN GRANGER: And I think the mistake a lot of associates make is they expect the firm to show them the keys to the next level, make a really clear path for them. Like, you would have to do a, b, and c, and then we will promote you. Like, it's not that clear. It's just not. And for a number of reasons it's not.
And so the people who approach their career with more of the goal of taking control of it, just being really honest with yourself about what experiences you're having year to year, what responsibilities you've been given, what you truly enjoy, what gets you out of bed in the morning-- I continually use that phrasing because it's actually true. Like, you've got to get out of bed in the morning to go do this job. Those people tend to just navigate the big law world better. And I really like to see that from candidates and junior associates, the ones who just approach it with a plan.
NATALIE BLAZER: It's being proactive. It's not waiting for somebody else. And by the way, as somebody who left big law after several years, I was doing all those same things. I was reflecting, what does get me out of bed in the morning? Like, what is my skill set? What do I think I have to offer? And for a lot of people, ultimately, big law is not necessarily their long-term--
MEGHAN GRANGER: For most people.
NATALIE BLAZER: For most people.
MEGHAN GRANGER: So that's the thing to be honest. Like, only a small percentage of people make partner.
NATALIE BLAZER: And that that's OK. And that if you're thinking far enough ahead, you can really go use your time at the firm to launch yourself into the next phase of your career. And by the way, firms like Weil-- they totally get that. That's part of the business model. They can't make everyone partner, period. But they want to-- one thing I love about Weil specifically is their alumni are just incredible. And they're so supportive.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Yes.
NATALIE BLAZER: So we've been kind of talking about, and I think we both have a lot of love for Weil. There are many, many, many, many, many other firms out there. So for a law student who is deciding among law firms, what advice would you give them in how to choose?
MEGHAN GRANGER: So we've touched on this, but I have an unpopular opinion, which is that everyone likes to tell law students that you don't need to what you want to do. You can come to big law without knowing if you want to do corporate or litigation, and you'll be totally fine.
That's probably true, but I can't overemphasize the advantages you'll have if you do what you want to do. There's just no escaping the fact that big law is trending to be more specialized in the areas that you practice. Like, it's one thing to say like, oh, I do corporate. Like, it's like, well, do you do private equity? Do you focus on public M&A? Do you actually like the corporate governance area of public M&A? Like, there's just so many different nooks and crannies.
And having a credible reason why you want to do something can be tremendously helpful in narrowing your search among law firms because different law firms do have different strengths across practice areas. Plus, you can write your resume and your cover letter to appeal to those people and make it really easy for that hiring partner to see where you fit.
And I think it's also just really important to ask yourself why you're going to big law. It might be that, like many people, myself included, you had loans to pay off, and you think that eventually you'll go and-- go to the government or do something else, go in-house. And that calculus for you might be different than a calculus for someone who really wants to go all in at a law firm. So it varies by person, but I think all those factors need to come into play when you're really deciding which firm.
NATALIE BLAZER: What about ranking? People care a lot about rankings in all areas of life, but law schools--
MEGHAN GRANGER: They do.
NATALIE BLAZER: --law firms, the top 10 restaurants in Austin or whatever. We as humans like to organize information in that way. These days, with law firms-- like, again, there are so many of them. They specialize in different things. Like, is it even apples to apples when you're ranking firms, or what is your opinion on that?
MEGHAN GRANGER: [SIGHS] I hear that law students care about the firm rankings a lot. I think that that's a misplaced emphasis.
NATALIE BLAZER: Same with law school, by the way.
MEGHAN GRANGER: I agree. I think that, frankly, you are better off looking at the types of work and the fact that-- whether that firm has enough work and the types of colleagues. So good work, good colleagues is a very basic, simple formula.
But I just think it's-- a lot of people should realize there are many profitable firms that are not top ranked. You just want to make sure you have-- the firm is well run and you have enough to do. There's nothing worse than being bored.
NATALIE BLAZER: Oh, gosh. And I love that you asked someone at the FTC, like, which firms do you respect? Like, ask around. Talk to people. I think that's great. So a lot of young people today, I think maybe-- it's not just young people. Maybe everybody feels this way. But I think they seem to the idea of having a mentor. Like, in law school, I've gotten that question. Like, will I have a mentor, either a peer or a faculty member or whatever? So that there's a longer answer to that as far as law school goes, but for law firms, how important is that? What was your experience?
MEGHAN GRANGER: It's so interesting. I would say in the past couple of years, like, 90% of the candidates that I interview asked me this question.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yes, same. I think maybe someone's telling them to ask.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Is this, like, on some FAQ as how to do an interview, or whether they actually care about it, or-- but every firm will have a mentorship program. Sometimes you click with that assigned mentor. Sometimes you don't. The far more impactful mentor relationships are those that form organically, in my view. And those typically happen with the people you work with day to day.
NATALIE BLAZER: Absolutely.
MEGHAN GRANGER: I certainly have benefited from a few mentors, all within my practice group, who ultimately, in some cases became really more of a sponsor for me. And in a law firm, in order to be promoted to partner, you often do need that. You need people to sponsor you and be able to explain to the partnership why you're valuable and what the business case is for you to make partner.
And so those are incredibly important relationships. But again, those develop over time, organically, by doing good work with people, by just getting to them. The other thing that I think what you're actually asking for when you say, Do you have a mentor? is, is there someone who's going to be honest with me?
And in your career, you have to find the people who are really going to be honest with you. And that's not to say that people are being dishonest with you in the firm. But people are so afraid sometimes to give constructive criticism and to talk about something that they might think is too personal-- like, those types of things. And I think that all these candidates, that that's what they're really asking for, is, am I going to have someone who's just going to give me honest feedback?
NATALIE BLAZER: Give it to me straight? Yeah.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Yeah.
NATALIE BLAZER: That's such a great point I didn't even think of. And yeah, it's kind of-- again, going back to taking control of your career--
MEGHAN GRANGER: Yes, finding that person who's going to be honest with you.
NATALIE BLAZER: Not waiting until someone assigns you a mentor.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Yeah, exactly.
NATALIE BLAZER: Right.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Right.
NATALIE BLAZER: You can find them on your own. So if you could go back in time as a law student or at the very beginning of your career, is there anything you would have done differently?
MEGHAN GRANGER: I would have started-- definitely, I would have joined a study group, or at least had friends that I would have studied with in law school. I think that's probably my best advice, frankly. Also, if your professor records his lectures-- do they still do that?
NATALIE BLAZER: Oh, they do.
MEGHAN GRANGER: I would listen to all those lectures again before I took an exam, because my best grade in law school was the one class I listened to all the lectures again right before. And then the other one is you're investing to learn the law, but you're also investing to have access to this incredible network of people. And so advice I would have given my former self is to invest more in those connections in law school. Because I'll tell you, I see the rainmaker partners at my firm-- they just have connections everywhere, whether it's law school, their kids' soccer teams, parents, whatever it might be.
NATALIE BLAZER: You never know where it could--
MEGHAN GRANGER: Yeah, they just-- they have so many connections. And so I think that you just-- you never when someone will cross your path again.
NATALIE BLAZER: [GASPS]
MEGHAN GRANGER: I know.
NATALIE BLAZER: So true.
MEGHAN GRANGER: That's a lame one. But UVA Law is a really great place for starting that network. And I wish that I had taken that more seriously when I was here.
NATALIE BLAZER: So for people out there, like I believe most listeners, maybe for this episode, like, your mom will listen, but--
MEGHAN GRANGER: Oh, my mom will listen.
NATALIE BLAZER: [LAUGHS]
MEGHAN GRANGER: She's very excited to listen.
NATALIE BLAZER: But for most of our listeners who are applying to law school, considering law school, do you have a number one piece of advice for them?
MEGHAN GRANGER: I think I've said it, unfortunately, like, 10 times in this--
NATALIE BLAZER: It bears repeating.
MEGHAN GRANGER: --podcast interivew, but it does. I think it sounds like a tall order, but if you have an idea of what you want to do with your law degree before you start the process, everything will be easier. Literally everything.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. And like everything else in the law school application process, it's all about authenticity. Like, think about, what did you major in college? What have your internship experiences, work experiences, life experiences been? Like, what are you drawn to? And it doesn't have to be the fanciest, shiniest thing that you've heard of. So, Meghan, anything we did not talk about that you to make sure people know?
MEGHAN GRANGER: I think that there are two pieces of advice I would share. These are the two best pieces of advice I have received as a practicing attorney over the past 13 years. So the first one is I cannot tell you how important it is to be able to get to the bottom line. People's time is limited, and it feels like it only gets even worse every year. And you have to be able to get to the point. What is the purpose of your email? Bottom line up front. Bottom line up front.
I just can't even begin to tell you-- I worked for a partner for years and years who could just boil things down to the absolute essence. I mean, he was so talented at this. And clients loved him for it. And I still struggle with this, as I already feel from our podcast and my long, winding answers. I struggle with this.
The second piece is you need to act like a duck. You have to let the water just fall off your back. There were times in my career where I think that I would be defensive. Like, I would want to explain why I did something some way when someone told me to do it a different way. Like, oh, I thought of that, but I did it this way because-- right?
Or back to where we started the first part of this podcast. I told you I don't really like adversarial situations. They happen, and you just-- you handle it so much better if you just let it slide off your back. It's just part of the job, and you move forward with your day.
And I think that-- again, it's not about minimizing things or not caring, but it's just about accepting, sometimes, that this is not a big deal. Just move forward. And I think those two pieces of advice combined have-- again, I struggle with them both all the time. But they really make a difference.
NATALIE BLAZER: I think we all struggle with those things, probably. But remembering. Like, it's not personal.
MEGHAN GRANGER: No, it's usually not.
NATALIE BLAZER: It's usually not. You're one in this huge world. And I find this, too. People say like, oh, yeah, well, I was going to, but then-- it's like, just be accountable. Just kind of say like, oh, OK, and then move on.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Sure.
NATALIE BLAZER: It's OK.
MEGHAN GRANGER: And if you disagree with me, like, I'm happy to have a conversation. It's just sometimes-- and again, I used to be guilty of this, too. I'd be like, well, no, I thought of that, but I didn't do it that way because-- and it's just the cycles. Like, sometimes you just go with it. Like, let's--
NATALIE BLAZER: Totally.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Be a duck.
NATALIE BLAZER: Be a duck.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Be a duck, yeah.
NATALIE BLAZER: This was so awesome, Meghan. Thank you so much. I think everyone knows now, probably more than ever, how busy you really are.
MEGHAN GRANGER: No.
NATALIE BLAZER: And I really appreciate you taking the time before you go to London.
MEGHAN GRANGER: I'm off on a great adventure. I'm very grateful to the firm for supporting the growth of our global antitrust group.
NATALIE BLAZER: I am grateful, too, because I'll see you there for Thanksgiving.
MEGHAN GRANGER: Thanksgiving? Yeah, it's a great opportunity. And I think it also just goes to show, like, when you do truly love the area of law that you're practicing and you're invested in it, cool opportunities open themselves up.
NATALIE BLAZER: That's so true. And I found that with Weil, that if you are invested in them, they will invest in you. And they will support what you want to do when you're, obviously, making huge contributions to the firm. Like, they will-- they want to see you happy and thriving in your career. So if that's something that you want to do, I feel like they're supportive.
MEGHAN GRANGER: No, absolutely. And I think that's true at most firms. I mean, it's good for business, ultimately.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah, it's good for business. Bottom line.
MEGHAN GRANGER: To invest in the people who really love their jobs.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah.
MEGHAN GRANGER: But yes. So maybe at some point we'll talk about what it's like to live as an expat US lawyer. It can be, like, your season 25.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yes. I would love that. I would love that.
MEGHAN GRANGER: OK.
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NATALIE BLAZER: This has been Admissible with me, Dean Natalie Blazer, at the University of Virginia School of Law. My guest today was Class of 2011 alumna and antitrust attorney Meghan Granger. For more information about UVA Law, please visit law.virginia.edu. The next episode of Admissible will be out soon. In the meantime, you can follow the show on Instagram at @admissiblepodcast. Thanks so much for listening, and please remember to rate the show wherever you listen to podcasts.
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