‘Admissible’ S5 E5: Supporting Wellness in Law School

KATE GIBSON: The evolutionary people tell us there was an evolutionary advantage about being pessimistic and worried about things.

NATALIE BLAZER: If you think, well, there's going to be food available later, you could see how that wouldn't work out well.

KATE GIBSON: Yeah. Or is that brown spot out there a lion or a rock? If you're like, it's a rock and you're wrong, not so helpful.

NATALIE BLAZER: Well, and like you said, lawyers, we have to plant. Opposing counsel is going to say this.

KAREN PAINTER: So you're practicing it, and you're getting good at it.

NATALIE BLAZER: Right. And so it's so easy to do.

KAREN PAINTER: It is.

NATALIE BLAZER: I will say, someone who does not have this problem is my husband. I'm like, is it going to rain today? He's like, no.

[LAUGHTER]

KATE GIBSON: I wonder what it would be like to be someone like your husband.

NATALIE BLAZER: Ah, yes.

[LAUGHTER]

[MUSIC PLAYING]

This is Admissible. I'm Natalie Blazer, Dean of Admissions at UVA Law. On today's show, we are discussing what I feel is a timely topic, since we are in the lead-up to the National election here in the US.

And in fact, this episode will be released just a few days following the election. Whether we will actually a result at that point, obviously yet to be determined. But I think, generally speaking, this is a time when we can all benefit from being mindful of and taking care of our mental health.

Here to discuss all of that and more with us today are my guests, Dr. Kate Gibson and Karen Painter, who from here on out, I will call Kate and Karen, since we are colleagues and friends. Kate and Karen are psychotherapists with UVA's counseling and psychological services, known around here as CAPS. And their work focuses exclusively on the mental health needs of our law school students.

Kate is a licensed psychologist and attorney and practiced in big law for eight years in Washington, DC before becoming a psychologist. She is at the law school full time and has been with us at UVA since 2015.

Karen, as a Chinese-American licensed professional counselor, has dedicated over a decade to providing mental health services at UVA. And prior to that, she had more than 20 years of clinical experience in the Central Virginia Community. Karen splits her time between the law school and our neighbors at the business school, Darden. Welcome to the show, Kate and Karen.

KATE GIBSON: Thank you.

KAREN PAINTER: Thanks for having us.

NATALIE BLAZER: It's so great to see you two. So I always like to do an icebreaker/fun fact. We were talking before we started recording about what a glorious autumn it has been. Do you have a favorite fall activity to mark the season?

KAREN PAINTER: I like pumpkin things. So I know not everybody does, but I get excited about the pumpkin things.

NATALIE BLAZER: Are you a pumpkin spice latte person?

KAREN PAINTER: Pumpkin spice lattes, pumpkin bread.

NATALIE BLAZER: Oh, nice.

KAREN PAINTER: Decorating pumpkins.

NATALIE BLAZER: Love it. I've been adding pumpkin puree to my oatmeal. And that has just given it a little seasonal touch. How about you?

KATE GIBSON: I just really like to walk around, scuff the leaves, and see the changes day to day. We have this beautiful garden behind the hotel next to the law school, and it's such a great place to go walk around and see nature.

NATALIE BLAZER: It's really showing off for us this year, I have to say. Well, in the very first season of Admissible, which was almost two years ago now, I had our Dean of Students, Dean Sarah Davies, on the show to discuss mental health and resilience and why those things are important in law school and legal practice. So while this isn't technically the first time we've touched on this topic on the show, today, I want to get a little bit more specific and talk about why it's important to get into the habit of managing mental health before you get to law school, in addition to detailing the direct services you two provide, along with all the other resources and support that we offer at UVA Law.

Of course, hopefully this goes without saying, we're going to be speaking in generalities when it comes to mental health and how law school applicants and law students can stay well. We're not remotely getting into any confidentiality issues or anything like that. Just wanted to state that little legal disclaimer upfront.

Before we dive in, though, I would love to hear a little bit more about each of your backgrounds and what brought you into your roles as CAPS psychotherapists here at UVA Law. Kate, you went to law school and practiced law for eight years before making this career transition. So can you tell us a little bit what led you to law school and legal practice in the first place? And then what inspired you to pivot?

KATE GIBSON: I think I'm like many of the students today. It seemed like a really fascinating and interesting area to study. And then big firm, this financial stability, the training, the chance to work on important cases-- all of that led me on that path.

Over time, I think the focus on the purely intellectual got a little bit much. I was seeing a therapist at the time and thinking through some of these issues. And then there were some family concerns that were going on that led me to reassess.

Being a good lawyer, of course, I took it slowly and deliberately to see if I wanted to do the career switch. And it turns out, it's been really great for me. It's wonderful to work at a place that values what I value-- relationships, inclusivity, and social justice. And also, I found that helping people on a one-on-one level just gives me immense joy. It was a surprising but wonderful thing to be able to weave those two things together starting in 2015.

NATALIE BLAZER: And what was it like going back to get another degree? Or did you already have the degree? Or you went back?

KATE GIBSON: Nope, I went back to school again.

NATALIE BLAZER: Wow.

KATE GIBSON: Turns out, it's a lot harder to study and learn things when you're older.

[LAUGHTER]

NATALIE BLAZER: I bet. Wow. But good for you. That's amazing. Karen, what about you? What led you to this career path initially and then to the higher ed space?

KAREN PAINTER: Yeah. Thank you, Natalie. I was always interested in human thought and behavior. And at first, I was a biology major, so I was thinking more research. I took a psychology class.

And in part because of the professor, I think I was hooked. And also, as a first-generation student, so I had to work. And so I did some volunteering first and then worked at a local domestic violence sexual assault safe home and then decided I was just drawn to hearing more about people's stories and particularly about how they navigated these challenges.

So I wanted to explore more, and so I worked in various settings with lots of age groups and then was able to find an opportunity to jump from community work to UVA. And I never looked back since. So at the law school, I feel like it's even more profound being part of professional graduate students' experience of thinking about their life decisions, integrating their life lessons maybe, culminating up to that point and maybe thinking about the future. So I'm just excited to be part of it. And yeah, I feel like I'm making a difference.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah, absolutely. We're so lucky to have both of you. And it's interesting you said hearing about people's stories.

I feel that's what drew me to Admissions in the first place. Young people are at these transitions and what's next. And so I can definitely relate to that.

So you've both been in this field. You've both been psychotherapists for a while now. I'm very curious if you have noticed any changes in your profession since you started. And are there more issues that you're seeing now than you used to? What can you tell us, in broad strokes, about changes to your profession since you started?

KATE GIBSON: That's a great question. I think broadly, one of the things we see, which I think just about everyone sees, is the level of worry and anxiety has continued to increase. And it overtook depression as the most significant diagnosis that we tend to see with folks eight or 10 years ago.

And then I think there's some other pieces as well. I think there's more awareness and acceptance of gender identity and expression. I think there's increased interest in and vocalization of things through a social justice lens and more concern about the world and long-term issues.

Clearly, there's also cultural changes, things like social media, technology. The last four years, we've all had to figure out how to do Zoom and remote work A lot of the time-- and, of course, the other aspects of the pandemic.

One of the wonderful things about this is, we see people who maybe 10 or 15 years ago had concerns like complex trauma, or serious or chronic mental issues, or physical issues that might not have even thought about going to law school. And now they're coming and succeeding thanks to all the supports, treatments, and acceptance.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. That is great. I didn't even think that maybe they would have counted themselves out, but that makes perfect sense. I'm curious, do you think people are just more comfortable sharing that they have anxiety and more comfortable saying they're going to therapy, more comfortable seeking out therapy? Or do you think, really, the anxiety did not exist before, and it has really ramped up, or maybe a little of both?

KAREN PAINTER: Yeah, I can answer that. I mean, absolutely, I think people are much more open. I think it's part of the generation.

It was also going through the pandemic-- hard to deny. This is taking a toll on folks. What I've noticed is also public figures and celebrities talking about it also helps people normalize and have the courage to take that first step and schedule an appointment.

There's online and mental health apps more so than before, and so that makes it more widespread and able to access from the comfort of our home. But the fortunate part is I think UVA is very supportive. I mean, we're here talking about it. So we can't do something until it crosses her mind.

NATALIE BLAZER: Do you think there are any misconceptions about therapy that are out there?

KATE GIBSON: Yeah. I think there are a lot of misconceptions and myths. We'll tag team on this one. But a very common one I hear is that people assume that therapy is only for when they're in crisis and to help them get through the crisis.

That is, of course, one thing that therapy can do, but I think it can do a lot more than that. So sometimes people just want to understand themselves better, or there's just a lot of stressful things going on that they want to talk through. And all of those are good ways to use therapy.

Similarly, people think of it as, oh, it's just a place to talk. Clearly, we spend most of our time talking with people. But there's a lot of work that goes on in therapy for people to make the changes that they want to make.

And the last thing I'll say before handing it over to Karen is, I hear it less now than I used to, but one of the things I heard all the time and still occasionally here is that people are reluctant to engage in mental health services for fear that it will affect their bar application and process. That absolutely doesn't happen. The bars have gotten really on board with the importance of mental health.

NATALIE BLAZER: Good. I'm glad to hear that. My gosh. It's better to start working on these things now in school.

KATE GIBSON: Right. And I think the bars-- I don't what they were like in the old days, but these days, that's pretty much where they're coming from.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah, yeah. Good, good.

KAREN PAINTER: Yeah. Thanks, Kate. I think hit on some big ones.

Some things to add as a person-of-color therapist, I often invite cultural sensitivity in our therapy space. I see a lot of international students, or family systems, or people coming from cultures not trusting health care or trying it for the first time because they're out of their family of origin. They've decided to explore something new for themselves.

And often, what I hear in terms of a myth is not to seek outside assistance and that maybe therapy's only for serious problems or people who are truly severely mentally ill versus what I would want to dispel that myth is that mental health is for everyone. If you have a brain, you have mental health. And that early intervention is best. And just like your physical health requires regular practice and effort, so similar good mental health requires consistent attention and proactive strategies.

KATE GIBSON: And the great thing is, taking care of your physical health also helps you take care of your mental health.

NATALIE BLAZER: That's true. That's true. So I want to talk a little bit now about specifically law students and lawyers. I've always wondered, well, is it the type A perfectionist person who decides they want to go to law school and become a lawyer?

But then they're also in a very challenging industry. So the personal characteristics of lawyers that are underlying, but also the characteristics of the profession, I feel like, historically have compounded in ways that may not be ideal. And I would just really love to hear what the expert take on that is.

KAREN PAINTER: Yeah. As far as personalities, there's definitely some very driven people, very hardworking. But in terms of personality types, we see the gamut.

I think law school has space. That's the nice part of the full range of personality types and approaches. But that being said, generally I think wanting to excel, very hardworking, detailed, high standards.

NATALIE BLAZER: High standards-- I was going to say, you said hardworking. I was thinking hard on ourselves. I'm putting myself in that category-- very tough on ourselves mentally. And that, of course, is not good for your mental health.

KAREN PAINTER: We talk a lot about self-compassion. Lawyers are humans too. And law students are human.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. I love that you are there, reinforcing these ideas for them because I do relate to this idea that there are these traits and characteristics that are great for when you need to perform, or when you need to take your exam, or argue in court. But they can be rough on your mental health.

KATE GIBSON: Yeah, and I think unfortunately, the professions, as you said, exacerbates this. I'm not sure I've ever heard a senior lawyer say, you're working too hard. Please stop.

NATALIE BLAZER: No.

KATE GIBSON: And so the more you know how to manage and where your limits are, you can help bring that in when they're throwing work at you. And we'll talk more about this later, but one of the wonderful things is it actually turns out people tend to both feel better, but also perform better if they're taking care of themselves and not driving themselves into the ground.

NATALIE BLAZER: And you mentioned, Karen, earlier, celebrities. If more people talked about it, if more law firm partners were like, hey, I just got back from my-- I'm leaving early today to go to therapy, you'd be like, oh--

KAREN PAINTER: It's OK.

NATALIE BLAZER: It's OK. Right. So I think that's really important to just become more mainstream. So related question to this, but slightly different-- again, speaking totally in generalities here, do you feel that there are specific issues or mental health concerns that are particular to the legal field or law students versus the general population?

KATE GIBSON: Yeah, I think they've been doing some research over about the last 10 years that does suggest that the rates of depression, anxiety, and alcohol and substance use are higher than in the general population. Again, I think we can wonder about which way the arrows go in terms of personalities and in terms of workload. But I think that is the world that law students are going into.

It's not specific to the personality, necessarily, but it is to the kind of work and the difficulty of work that's going on. And so it's really, really hard in a lot of law jobs to have life balance, to have self-care, but super important. And I think the intensity work, also with the limited time, makes it hard to figure out how to decompress, which may be one reason why people go out to bars or what have you.

NATALIE BLAZER: So true. I tell our incoming students at orientation every year, look, you are about to do something really hard in law school. But let's get it straight. Law school is not the difficult part. Law school is when you are surrounded by your friends, and you have all of these people whose entire jobs is to be looking out for you, and helping you, and our psychotherapists, and our career counseling, academic services, all these things-- peer advisors.

It is a challenging time, but it's certainly not what law practice is going to be like. And so I tell them, get into the good habits now. Manage your stress appropriately now while you are here and while I think they have much more bandwidth to do that. And it's just going to be easier to keep those habits going when they're in the stressful situations of practicing law. So what do you two feel are those good habits and patterns? And how can people start to address those things or continue to address those things while they're in law school?

KATE GIBSON: Yeah, I think it's wonderful to be teeing it up like that. Just as people spend a lot of time studying for the LSAT in preparation for going to law school, I think even before they get to law school, they can be implementing some of these and making them routine.

So nothing that people can expect, but getting into good daily routines with your work and having a break for your downtime, your personal life, certainly taking care of physical health. And that's something I think this generation is better at than mine was. Lots of people exercise regularly, eat healthily. Sleep is the one that maybe is hard for all overachievers, but that's worth paying attention to as well.

And then I think if you have those habits in place, it's easier to make shifts when you get to a higher level. So when you get to law school, you probably won't be doing all those routines the way you did before law school. But at least, what's important to you to do and how to try and work to fit it in. And I think the same thing is true when you go the next step to practicing law-- even harder, but it's easier to build on the foundation you already have than create a new one.

NATALIE BLAZER: Well, I tell people, you do have free time when you're in law school. You have a lot more free time in law school than you do when you're practicing. And if you can look back to the pre-law school time and think, god, it felt so good when I was going for my daily walk, or when I was getting my eight hours of sleep, or when I was making my food, or whatever it is. If you can remember what that feels like, I think it's easier, like you said, to have a baseline and then know, oh, those good habits will get me into a better mental space. Anything else you want to add, Karen?

KAREN PAINTER: Yeah, I think anything that is feeling restorative. 1L can-- I've heard students tell me it feels like you're on the go a lot. You're taking classes that you haven't particularly chosen.

So I think if it's not your favorite class, being able to balance it with things that restore you. And so maybe that's sleep. Maybe that's physical exercise. But also, I think the things that give you pleasure and that feed your soul.

KATE GIBSON: Yeah. And getting back to something you were saying earlier, I think there's a lot of myths about what one should do in 1L, mostly revolving around being super stressed out and doing nothing but work. We haven't seen that be effective at all. I mean, 1L is challenging for all the new experiences and for drinking from the fire hose. So it's not easy to balance your time, but it is well worth the effort.

NATALIE BLAZER: So I want to go back to the pandemic. I think we all felt the impacts of it. I hardly think anyone could be immune.

There was fear, and isolation, and I think everybody's mental health was affected to some extent. But I think a lot has been said about the younger generation. And I remember thinking, god, my heart just breaks for the high schoolers, especially, and college students who really were in those formative moments.

And you think about friendships, and sports, and clubs, and almost more frivolous things like prom and just things that they were not getting to do. And the college students, being away for the first time, and then suddenly they're back at home. And so I would really just love to hear y'all's thoughts for the generation who has come up through that-- so for those high school, college years, which, by the way, now we are seeing them as law students. So what impact have you seen specifically on that population?

KAREN PAINTER: Yeah, I think just what you said, all of those things, that it is especially harder for younger people. I found that it was harder, too, for younger people with non-dominant identities. So when we think about what occurred with the pandemic, we're still seeing the ripple effects of that. And it makes sense that there was heightened anxiety, and confusion, and maybe some social anxiety or delays.

And then also, what was hard during that time is younger adults who were trying to enter in the job market were hearing about hiring freezes and economic instability. It just hits them a lot harder.

NATALIE BLAZER: Hits them harder. And you take away the carefree nature of what that time should be because suddenly a global pandemic is possible. If you had told me that when I was 16 or 17, I'd be like-- I mean, it's just so out of your control.

KATE GIBSON: And I also think the flip side that we also saw, which was getting physical treatments, getting into mental health treatment became much harder post-pandemic, with people retiring and more need. So the tools that we advocate for people using were just a lot harder to get available. The good news for UVA is the Counseling Center here has really expanded their resources over the last four to five years-- and, for example, having folks embedded like we are at the various schools.

The good news for us is The Princeton Review actually ranked our Student Health and Wellness Center as the top student services center for the last two years.

NATALIE BLAZER: Oh, wow.

KATE GIBSON: So we are fortunate compared to the community that while it's not always completely fast to get in, it's typically much, much faster.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. Oh, that's great. Well, and I think there is so much that is lost when you're not in an in-person setting. Imagine if you were based your relationship with someone on how they text.

KATE GIBSON: And in some ways, we appreciate more things we took for granted. There is so much anxiety about socializing, but everyone I know is holding on to their friends tighter and closer than they used to because it was so hard when we didn't have that.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. Well, I was going to say, we really doubled down on the community once we were able to at UVA Law specifically. I think there was a very intentional, hey, remember what we are all about.

KATE GIBSON: Yeah. And I think Zoom, when it's not exclusive, is a blessing. We find now we give students the option of whether to meet with us in person or by Zoom.

Most people want to see us in person, but some don't. And also, it's a great-- we can quickly pivot if someone says, hey, I'm not feeling well today. Could I Zoom in instead of coming in for the meeting? Done, not a problem.

NATALIE BLAZER: And you don't lose that valuable work due to something like that. That's great. So pivoting off of that slightly, you hear a lot about, quote/unquote, "this generation," which I think has been said since the beginning of time. Every generation feels that the one before or after them makes no sense, and is out of touch, and so on, and so forth. But is there something unique to the generation that's in their early 20s right now that you think is important to note when it comes to mental health?

KAREN PAINTER: I think they are more apt to ask for help.

NATALIE BLAZER: Ask for help and state that they-- I think, as we've touched on before, they're more open. They've had more challenges, I feel like. And maybe that is why they're more open, because they feel a collective sense of, hey, look at all these things that have been impacting us, maybe.

KATE GIBSON: Yeah. I also think, as someone who is very far from being Gen-Z, it is a real privilege to hear the concerns and interests and values of the Gen-Z folks. I mean, students at the law school are much more diverse than they used to be, which I think is good, both for the law school and the profession.

I think they're more accepting. They're more aware of the challenges facing all of us now and going into the future. And so many of them want to make a difference and want to put actions behind their beliefs. And so I feel really privileged to spend time with them all.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah, I love that you put it that way. They are a very caring, compassionate generation, it feels-- very aware, very informed, I would say. So speaking of coming to UVA Law and being in the environment we're in, I just want to talk a little bit about how your office works, how these sessions work. So can you just give me an overview? Let's say I'm a 1L, and I decide I really could use some counseling. How do I know that that's available? How do I make an appointment? Can you just give us an overview of that process?

KAREN PAINTER: Well, we try to make it easy, so we're on this podcast, so--

NATALIE BLAZER: Getting the word out.

KAREN PAINTER: Yeah, just accessing us at law removes that barrier, where students can come after class. In terms of scheduling, we prefer that they do it through the patient portal since we have scheduled appointments. And there is a special joint email that we have. But just to back up a little bit, the most important thing to remove, I guess, any concerns are confidentiality.

So we take that seriously. It's our duty. It's our code of ethics to have a safe place to talk about anything and not just about school and academics. So we care about how you're processing these things. And also, that it's no additional cost, so they're already paying student fees.

So this is a benefit. Students often ask about insurance. But yes, to answer your question, the easiest is just to schedule on the patient portal or send an email.

NATALIE BLAZER: Well, you just mentioned something that I guess I didn't even think about, but it's important for people to know. just because you two are on-site at the law school, your sessions are not limited to, I'm having this issue in class, or I'm having this issue studying. They can talk about anything they want, right?

KATE GIBSON: Absolutely.

NATALIE BLAZER: I mean, maybe that sounds-- I just realized that, kind of.

KAREN PAINTER: Yeah, law always comes back in. But of course, yeah. But there's plenty of other things to talk about too.

KATE GIBSON: And just a couple of other things that people may not always think about-- we're also happy-- if there's a one-time thing that talking to a mental health provider, that they think that might be helpful, we're happy to do that as well. And we're also happy to help people if they want resources in the community or outside of CAPS to know some of the paths or ways to get there.

NATALIE BLAZER: Great, great. And by the way, you had mentioned our accolades on Princeton Review for our Student Health and Wellness Center. Do other law schools have psychotherapy available? I just don't know this.

KAREN PAINTER: Yeah. It's interesting. I took a look before this to see, which I did a few years ago. And certainly, it's becoming more common, but I'm a little interested that it's not moving even faster. So if I did my counting right, about half of our peer institutions do have counselors who are specific to law school.

There are some others that have programming that are directed to law students specifically, but may not have a specific person for it. So I think it's a great trend. And I think the ABA supports it, so hopefully it continues.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah, that's great. That's great to hear. You had mentioned this, Kate, other resources-- so someone could come to you maybe and say, OK, I want to have a session. But there are other things that they could also do or other resources that the law school maybe, if that's not right for them. Can you just talk about what those might be?

KAREN PAINTER: Yeah, absolutely. So there are other clinics. And sometimes, there are some stipulations in terms of how they can get in. But in terms of consultation with us, there's also consultation at Main CAP.

So that's about two miles-- part of the Student Health Center Crisis Services-- so if it's more pressing or urgent. And subjectively, if they feel like they can't wait, you could walk in-- so another barrier removed. They can also call in or walk in. And there's on call 24/7, essentially.

We do have psychiatry. Maybe they're curious about a medication consultation or if they've been on medication before. We have psychiatry.

It's not standalone, however. So at CAPS, it's a combined care approach. But we do provide referrals in the community if students want to seek psychiatry during their three years at the law school.

And then we have Timely Care, which is an app, a partner of CAPS. So you download the app. There's two paths. So one path is the on-demand counseling. So maybe you just want to problem solve.

You're not sure if you really want to commit to therapy. You can just talk to a licensed counselor in three minutes. It's like having a counselor in your pocket. And that's 24/7, and it could be big or small concern.

And then scheduled counseling is the 12 regular sessions, like teletherapy.

NATALIE BLAZER: Got it. Got it.

KAREN PAINTER: And students use that because we tend to see students just if they're residing in Virginia. And so if they're on summer internship, then Timely Care is something that we bring up as an option if they feel like they need it.

NATALIE BLAZER: I imagine there's some sort of crossover. The Student Affairs Office has, I would say, general check-ins with students. How are your classes? How are your exams? How's your living situation? Things like that, where they could say, OK, maybe I'm going to refer you to CAPS if something is really outside of that scope.

KAREN PAINTER: And vice versa.

NATALIE BLAZER: That's what I was going to ask. Does someone come in for counseling, and you're like, you just really need to get a study schedule, or you need to maybe move into a different apartment. I could see it going both ways.

KATE GIBSON: Yeah. And I think it's often both/and. One of the things I love about working at the law school is not only are there student services that are directed to helping students, but the people in those positions really want to help students. So we are often saying, as well as seeing us, maybe it would be helpful to talk to Student Affairs, or Financial Services, or the Admissions folks, PAs.

There's so many supports for mental health that aren't directly trained mental health providers. And I always think more is better, so I'd rather have two supports than one, five than two, et cetera. We do know that the more people feel part of a community, the more they tend to flourish.

NATALIE BLAZER: Absolutely. OK, so at the beginning of the show-- today, it's October 28, which means next week is the National election. I don't know if you two know, but there's an election coming up. How anyone could avoid it, it is beyond me. But by the time this episode comes out, we might not the result, but we will have a sense of the political climate or how it went.

We just talked about how wonderful our community is, and it is. But I think that times like this, it can be actually challenging to be in a community because we actually very much pride ourselves at UVA Law on our ideological diversity, specifically among, as Kate touched on, other types of diversity. It's vital, actually, that people disagree and don't have the same views.

And we in Admissions work to bring together a diverse community in that sense. And for the most part, that works. You create a tight-knit community. You teach people how to disagree. I think it all can work very well.

But I do think that that is really tested in times like this. We are all feeling vulnerable. The particular issues that are up for debate are really personal. And then you add on top of that this is a training ground of training people to argue for a living.

And so then, you add-- it's like a tinder box. It's like, we're going to teach you how to make the best argument you can and also throw you together with all these people who feel very differently than you do about things that are very personal to you. You can see how it could be just our very tight-knit community of people from all walks of life, I feel, it really has to withstand times like this. And again, at the end of the day, UVA lawyers are out in the world as reputable, respectful, great lawyers because I think they came from an environment like that.

So a couple of things come to mind when I think about this. Do you two, in your roles, see an uptick in people who are seeking counseling during times like this? And/or, I guess, are the people that you're already talking to feeling more stressed? Just curious how the national climate is impacting you on this individual level.

KAREN PAINTER: Yeah. I think when you explain it with that emotionality like you just did, I'm feeling some stress.

NATALIE BLAZER: Sorry. Oh, my gosh, not my intention.

KAREN PAINTER: But I also-- I mean, I think it's just we're people. We're just dealing with a lot and with the presidential elections on top of it. Also, especially, when you're navigating spaces where you're not sure, these are all new people that you're trying to impress, both socially and professionally. So I think, in terms of the uptick, I'm not completely sure about that. We have been working with people who had issues that predated the election and problems, so we also give them space to talk about how the world events are affecting them. But interestingly enough, they're more concerned about their personal things--

NATALIE BLAZER: That makes sense.

KAREN PAINTER: --which is nice. That's been my experience.

KATE GIBSON: Yeah, similar. I mean, we sometimes do get an uptick in people who come in in reaction to a specific world event. But more often, it gets woven into what we're talking with people we've already been seeing.

NATALIE BLAZER: So what advice can you offer to people? I mean, man, like myself included, who feel that they're worried or having anxiety? I mean, again, this is going to be coming out at a time when we could see a lot of division. So what advice you offer folks?

KATE GIBSON: I think there are some strategies that are commonly suggested for any sort of engrossing world event. And a lot of it is going back to the technology and the social media-- so managing your news feeds or cutting them off. Even though it feels so urgent, it's not like anything is changing moment to moment. So considering just checking your news once or twice a day and actively forcing yourself not to do it when you have a spare moment.

Same thing with doomscrolling. Media is really good at having provocative headlines, which send us all down the rabbit holes. And so the more-- is it helpful to read polls that you don't even how accurate they are? Is it helpful to read one person's anecdote about something if it's going to pull out emotions? You certainly can, but it helps to keep a balance if you are very intentional about how you manage your social media.

It's also great to lean on the things you already know are important-- your social connections and supports, and to look for things you can do to create a sense of control. So maybe you do something to help out your community or something at the law school just to remind you that while the big things we have but so much influence on, there's the personal level that we can really make a difference in.

NATALIE BLAZER: That's great advice, actually. Putting some good into the world-- if you feel that you personally are feeling anxious about the National or do something much closer to home. And I think that I love that advice.

KAREN PAINTER: Yeah, I think everybody has their own stress response, their natural go-to. People pull away, or some people are pulling for more companionship. And I guess as a person of color or with people, as Kate mentioned, that were directly involved, I tell students to consider your own capacity and your own bandwidth to be helping the time now, with all the things else that you have going on.

And that helps you decide for yourself to choose about whether to get involved or not and what you want to do because there are gradations of ways to still contribute in our social causes. So just paying attention to your self-care. Racial and emotional battle fatigue is a real thing.

It catches up on us. It takes a physical toll. So just taking time to take breaks, as I mentioned before, just being able to restore and replenish yourself so that you can provide more, and be in those spaces, and help other people. I think that's so important.

NATALIE BLAZER: I think that's great advice because at the end of the day, they're going into the legal profession. Regardless of whether you're in big law, or whether you're providing direct legal services, or you're in the federal government, you are going to be always dealing with your own personal stuff. That's never going away. But now you're adding to it the weight of your clients' problems that you are getting paid to solve. And so if you're not taking care of your own self, it's just going to be so tempting to take home all of the issues, especially if you're in a really tough-- legal services, legal aid, if you're in a prosecutor's office, if you're a public defender, but also, on the big law side.

I remember I had a ton of pro-bono clients. Those things weighed very heavily on me. So doing the wonderful things you two both said, now, I think it's just going to be almost professional development for them as well. So anything else you want to say about how to navigate challenging world situations when you're feeling vulnerable with people who are opposed to your own world views? Anything else you want to say about that?

KATE GIBSON: I think just to echo what Karen was saying, you're not obligated to have the conversation with everybody who wants to have the conversation with you-- so knowing where you're at in terms of emotional cushion, tiredness, who the person is that's wanting to have the conversation, you can decide, do you just say, not today? Do you have something a little on the surface?

Or do you really get into the depths of the disagreement? And there, I think, things like respect, civility, letting each person present their views without interruption-- those are good tools. But I think picking your moments where it feels either important or you have available resources to have those conversations.

NATALIE BLAZER: Absolutely. You can't engage with every single person. And I think listening-- listening, just prioritizing, listening, I think, is always a good idea. So before we wrap up, speaking of listening, for our listeners out there who are currently working on their law school applications, or they're considering going to law school, or they're deciding where to go for law school, what advice can you offer those people?

KATE GIBSON: Summarizing what we've been talking about for the last hour, I would just recommend that tending to your well-being now and going forward is one of the best preparations for law school, your career, and your life.

NATALIE BLAZER: People ask me a lot, what can I be reading? What can I be working on? What can I teach myself before law school? I say, you don't need to anything substantive beyond if you were admitted, we feel that you are ready. Take care of yourself. Sleep, connect with your family and friends, feel good physically. Get in the right mental head space, and that will get you a really, really, really long way. So I'm glad that the expert is signing off on that. What about you, Karen?

KAREN PAINTER: Yeah, I just feel like, when we talked, it's just protecting our peace, just knowing that you're enough, that even though you're going through all of this application, and anxiety, and thinking about the future, yeah, being able to settle into what's happening now and soaking that up. Today is actually not a bad day. But our heads goes into the future about all what ifs and worst-case scenarios, which, of course, a lot of lawyers do. And that helps your profession. But just taking a step back and thinking about your mental health and that it's just one day at a time and that today is not that bad.

NATALIE BLAZER: Right. Knowing you're enough, knowing you belong here-- we didn't touch on this at all, but I imagine see-- because even I see a lot of people with imposter syndrome.

KATE GIBSON: Oh, yeah. I think Dean Jefferson said-- and I concur-- we've rarely met someone who doesn't feel it. The problem is, I think the more you get away from majority culture, the more it's easy to feel it more intensely, more frequently.

NATALIE BLAZER: So true. This is giving me a lot to think about. I mean, our students are so lucky to have you both. Anything else you want to make sure people know before we sign off?

KATE GIBSON: That everyone that gets admitted to UVA Law School does, in fact, deserve to be here and is not an imposter.

NATALIE BLAZER: I love that. I obviously wholeheartedly endorse that statement. Well, Karen, Kate, thank you both so much for coming on the show today. This was wonderful and, I think, is really going to help a lot of people.

KAREN PAINTER: Yeah, it's been a pleasure. I'm just so glad that we could talk about anxiety and mental health. So thanks for having us. Thanks for the listening audience.

KATE GIBSON: Yeah. Thanks, Natalie. It's been great to have a chance to talk about wellness and mental health. And best wishes to all your listeners out there as they consider law school and applying.

NATALIE BLAZER: Thank you so much.

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This has been Admissible with me, Dean Natalie Blazer, at the University of Virginia School of Law. My guests today were our two on-site CAPS psychotherapists, Dr. Kate Gibson and Karen Painter. For more information about UVA Law, please visit law.virginia.edu.

The next episode of Admissible will be out soon. In the meantime, you can follow the show on Instagram at @admissiblepodcast. And as a reminder, Admissible is now on YouTube. You can check out all new episodes there, along with some vintage content we're sharing to help guide you through this application season. Thanks so much for listening, and please remember to rate the show wherever you listen to podcasts.

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