First-year law student Colleen Sullivan joins Dean Blazer ’08 to discuss how she navigated one of the most competitive and uncertain application cycles on record. From authentic communication to patience to staying true to her goals, tune in to hear Sullivan’s advice and how her journey brought her to UVA Law.
Transcript
NATALIE BLAZER: Back when I was going through law school application process, Georgetown Law, where my dad went, had waitlisted me. And I was home over the summer. The phone rang, and it was Georgetown Law. And they said, hey, we're really interested in admitting you off the waitlist, but would you come if we did that? And I said oh, no. Like, I'm going to UVA, but thanks so much. And they were like, OK, great, thanks, and I hung up. And I turned around, and my dad was there. And the look on his face-- I mean, he-- I was proud that I was going to UVA, but when it's their alma mater, it's just a different--
COLLEEN SULLIVAN: It's totally different
NATALIE BLAZER: --like level. Because I was so nonchalant. I was like, no. Like, my mind was made up.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
NATALIE BLAZER: This is Admissible. I'm Natalie Blazer, Dean of Admissions at UVA Law. Listeners out there who are current law school applicants in this-- the 2025 cycle probably already know that this is an extremely competitive year to be applying to law school. That's because there's a big increase in application volume, and there's also an increase in LSAT scores at the higher end of the range. What this means in practice is that law schools, including us at UVA, are going to be a bit more cautious during the regular cycle in the number of people we admit.
And why is that? Well, if you have a lot more strong applicants out there in the pool-- right now it looks like 20% to 30% more. That means you actually have a better chance than usual at yielding the students you admit because they are going to have, in theory, fewer options of schools to choose from, so they might be more likely to choose UVA. Of course, I think everyone should choose UVA all the time, no matter what, but I'm also a realist. So basically, the worst case scenario is for a law school to over enroll. We never want to do that.
So we're pausing on people that we might have snatched up in a previous cycle. So all that is to say if you're out there applying this cycle, my heart goes out to you. If you've already been admitted, congratulations because it's a really, really tough year. So by being cautious in a cycle like this, we're going to intentionally under enroll during the regular cycle. Because again, the worst thing we can do is over enroll. So what does that mean? That means that we are almost definitely going to go to the waitlist to make up the rest of the class.
So that was a really long winded way of saying, we're going to be talking about the waitlist today and how to get off the waitlist, some tips, strategies, best practices, how to stay positive. On the show with me today, one of our most amazing waitlist success stories, is first year student Colleen Sullivan. Originally from Southern California, Colleen graduated from the University of Texas at Austin in 2022, where she was a varsity athlete. She went on to earn her Master's in International Film Business from the University of Exeter and London Film School. Prior to coming to law school, Colleen worked for switch in Las Vegas as an Internal Communications Coordinator. True women of the world. Welcome to the show, Colleen.
COLLEEN: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to talk about this topic.
NATALIE BLAZER: It's so wonderful to see you again. So I shared a very brief version of your impressive background, a very truncated version. What's something people might not know about you?
COLLEEN: Ooh. I mean, I'm a music fanatic. If you came to my apartment, you'd hear it playing pretty much 24/7. I grew up playing guitar, and piano, and singing, and performing, and writing songs for my family probably to an annoying degree. And my brother is actually a music manager out in LA, and we always joke about having stolen each other's pipe dreams because he wanted to be an MLB player, and I always wanted to work in music.
NATALIE BLAZER: Oh, my gosh.
COLLEEN: So yeah. It's probably my little fun fact.
NATALIE BLAZER: That is-- well, and you have a voice. Like, I bet you have a great singing voice too.
COLLEEN: It was-- I did-- I hate to admit so early on I was a theater kid. So for all my theater kids out there, shout out. We need to wear it with pride. I love it. I definitely had a voice that projected to say the least.
NATALIE BLAZER: And you mentioned your brother wanted to be in the MLB. I have to point out-- I said you were a varsity athlete.
COLLEEN: Oh, yeah.
NATALIE BLAZER: But you were a softball player. And not only that, you won the 2019 College World Series.
COLLEEN: Yeah.
NATALIE BLAZER: We're going to talk about softball hopefully a little bit later in the show because people know that that's a thing at UVA, and I would love to hear more about it. But was that just the coolest?
COLLEEN: Oh, it was-- especially like having started so young, that was the most competitive, hard work pays off kind of moment for sure.
NATALIE BLAZER: Oh, my God. Incredible. I love that. OK. So talking about law school, you obviously have a multifaceted background. When and how did you really decide that a law degree is what you wanted to do?
COLLEEN: Yeah. I actually started pre-med. I did a whole year of pre-med. Thought I was going to do something in neuroscience or stem cell research, and then kind of realized maybe I don't want to be stuck in the lab all day. I seem a little bit more extroverted for that. And my parents are actually litigators back in California. And so I had exposure to law. I'd always been told that was conducive with my skill set, but I always had this overwhelming feeling that if I went to law school I wanted it to be on my own terms and not just to do it.
And so I transferred to University of Texas, started pursuing a business, media, sport, entertainment conglomerate, major out there and started to see my interest in media-- especially this intersection of how media is influencing our lives and interacts with innovation and technology. So when it came around to application time my senior year, and I was looking at the personal statement. And I was like, I know that law school, I think is starting to be something I see in my sights, but I've only done really softball for my entire life.
I hadn't traveled anywhere. I didn't get to study abroad. I didn't really get to pursue other interests just because it's so time intensive. And I felt that in order to be the best advocate that I could be and really get the most out of my legal education, I needed to narrow down who I was-- my thoughts, my opinions, how I saw the world to really glean the most that I could. So that's when I started looking for other alternatives. I'm a lifelong learner, so I found this amazing master's program. It was a master's in International Film Business, as you said.
But it was-- I started looking at how generative AI was affecting intellectual property laws back in 2022, and that exploded. And I chose to write my dissertation topic on that and just fell in love with how the law was a driver for navigating innovation before legislation or some of these other opportunities are able to narrow down how we deal with these ideas of first impression. So I felt like I had solidified my path and that I was ready to go to law school and really pursue that.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. I mean, I feel like you wrote a dissertation about legal implications of generative AI before I even knew what, like, generative AI was, so good for you. And you made a documentary. I have to bring this up because first of all, it has a great name.
COLLEEN: Yeah. Thin Ice.
NATALIE BLAZER: Thin Ice about I want to say synchronized figure skating. Was that what it was?
COLLEEN: Yes. So synchronized figure skating. Your mind is probably going right to synchronized swimming. In my opinion I think it's even cooler. It's one of the few nationally-recognized programs that has been shunned from being in the Olympics. And so my stepmom is one of the biggest judges of it in the US. And so I had been exposed to that.
NATALIE BLAZER: Cool.
COLLEEN: Yeah, it was great. And so when I got to film school, I thought that they maybe had misread my application because everyone in the class was 35 or older, had been on IMDb with full credits. I'm just this kid out of undergrad. And so when they asked us to make a project, a film project, everyone was like, oh, yeah, of course. I've been through these ropes. And I was like, oh, I have no idea what I'm doing. And it was one of those experiences where you kind of realize, like, hey, you can do absolutely anything if you have the grit to go and research and put your mind behind it. And B, everyone doesn't know maybe as much as you think they do, so it's really a battle of spirits. And so it got chosen by faculty to present at Cannes Film Festival and some other really cool exhibition markets. It was awesome.
NATALIE BLAZER: Wow. You're going to be a phenomenal lawyer, but you also have multiple backup options, I'm going to say, so--
COLLEEN: Yes. Definitely things to go back to.
[LAUGHTER]
NATALIE BLAZER: OK. So you get your master's degree abroad. Really, really cool experience there. You kind of-- you're interest in the law is gelling. It sounds like you come back to the US in like fall of like 2023. Just talk about-- my understanding is then you were like, OK, it's time to do my law school applications. So talk about your process a little bit.
COLLEEN: Yeah. So the way that my master's worked, I could have tried to do all of the application materials while I was abroad, but I just thought it would be really challenging and deplete me of the experience of being fully there. So I had known that I was going to take two full years off. And so I first got a job at a tech company because I knew I had this interest in IP, but I didn't have a STEM background. So I wanted to be able to talk the talk a little bit if I was going to be in that sphere. But then also, yeah, my nights were totally dedicated to going through the application process. So I had taken the LSAT before I went to the UK, thankfully, because that was like a whole process.
NATALIE BLAZER: Getting that off of your list? Yeah.
COLLEEN: Exactly, as I'm sure everybody can relate to that relief. And then as soon as I got back, I started reaching out for letters of rec. I chose to do three letters of rec-- one from a professor in undergrad. One from a professor in my master's program, and then for me a coach figure to add some humanizing element of my grit and character and whatnot. Yeah. And then I started doing my applications. I got back to the States around September. So that was when I started getting everything going. And I started submitting applications. I think my first one was November 15-- and prioritize getting them all in before the end of the year. So between November 15 to December-- late December.
NATALIE BLAZER: Great. So I'm curious how you decided where to apply because you're from Southern California. You went to college in Texas. You did your master's in the UK. So tell us about that.
COLLEEN: Yeah, 100%. So definitely cast a wide net. I applied, I think, to almost every T14, some down to T20, and then a couple safeties for a couple reasons. First of all, I had just heard that the LSAT stats and the GPA stats were continuing to rise with post-COVID and also like we can take the LSAT multiple times, et cetera. I also knew, too, that my biggest emphasis was trying to find a school that was the best match for my personality, for the type of students that were going to be around. As a former athlete, I had experienced phenomenal teams on paper, but the chemistry didn't gel, and that really affected my experience for better or worse. And so that was something that was important to me.
So I did apply to both coasts, but I first tried to make sure that they had an established IP program everywhere that I applied. And second, that when I was interacting with them and pre-recruiting formats, like the LSAC forums and whatnot, that the people who they thought was the best representation of them seemed like people who I could be friends with--
NATALIE BLAZER: Totally.
COLLEEN: Along with-- et cetera. So--
NATALIE BLAZER: Well, and you-- that's a great segue because I noticed that you went to two LSAC forums.
COLLEEN: Yes.
NATALIE BLAZER: Tell me about that because one was in Chicago and one was in LA. So how did that work out?
COLLEEN: Yeah. So Chicago, what was difficult was a lot of the schools that I wanted to apply to were not attending all of the forums, and the Los Angeles forum was later in the process. I think it was at the end of October.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yes, it was.
COLLEEN: So first of all, I was just trying to get out there a little bit earlier when I was still deciding where to apply rather than by the end of October I had my list pretty set. And then two, there was just certain schools that didn't send representatives, and I wanted to make sure that I was able to talk with them. So it was probably maybe like a little extreme. But--
NATALIE BLAZER: No. No. I think that's really smart, actually. I think-- it sounds to me like you didn't apply somewhere where you for sure would never attend.
COLLEEN: 100%.
NATALIE BLAZER: Right? Yeah.
COLLEEN: Every single school that I applied to felt like if they had given me an offer, and I'd felt like there was the proper connection, I absolutely would have gone. To and there were some schools that I didn't apply to. Whether it was I was a Southern Californian and didn't think I could deal with the weather or like a lot of little-- my dad. When I was committing to softball schools in eighth grade-- it was super early, the recruiting process back then. He would always make us rank, whether academic preferences and intangibles. Those are like the three categories that he would evaluate me and all my siblings, where we were going to go. And then rank those in terms of your importance.
And so for me, it was a tie between intangibles and academic availability and then geographic region. So those LSAC forms were so helpful because first of all, you get over the fear of being in a room of people who you have no idea who they are and having to go up and start a conversation from scratch. It's not easy, but I'm doing it all the time right now.
NATALIE BLAZER: I was going to say, you're going to a firm dinner right after this, so you have all the practice. That's great.
COLLEEN: One of the most needed skills. And then two, I just would go up and ask all of the schools what are the most important qualities that you are looking for in applicants that you think would be successful at your school? And for me, UVA's resonated the most because I spoke to two different wonderful members of the admissions office, and they echoed the same two things that they were looking for. Some kind of purpose or goal or vision for your legal career, and then that you demonstrated being a quality human by being involved in your community. And those are the two things that I found the most compelling. So it was great to hear that at those forums.
NATALIE BLAZER: It's such a blessing to have the team that we do because I can't travel that much, but I just know. Well, I know who you spoke to, but I know that whoever you speak to, you're going to get a great experience like that, and they're going to give you really just like an authentic answer. And so OK, so you applied to UVA. It was around December 2023 we're talking about. When did you start hearing back from schools?
COLLEEN: I started hearing back from my more safety schools like January, February, and then I started hearing back from T14s-- I think for me it was a little bit later than some. I think it was late March. Well, early to late March and then early April. So for me it was a little bit more spread out. I know at that process last year it seemed also similar, where they were trying to make-- they were a little more reserved with certain candidates.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yes. It's been quite a few years in admissions because last year, it was a very similar-- for different reasons. It was another slow year. So I very much remember getting an email from you in late March. I think our Admitted Student Open House that year had probably just happened, and I know what I think of the email. But I want to hear from you. Like, at that point, it sounds like you had heard from some schools. So tell us your thought process in reaching out at that point of the cycle.
COLLEEN: Yeah. So especially with casting a wider net-- and at that point, I had some phenomenal schools, like Cornell, Georgetown. And for me, I had committed actually to NYU already at the time, which I loved them for what I wanted to do. They were phenomenal option, great admin office.
NATALIE BLAZER: So when did you commit to NYU? That's interesting.
COLLEEN: I committed to NYU around late March-- right around when I was sending this email. And so for me, it was funny because NYU was on my short list. I had three schools on my shortlist of if I got into these three schools, like I'm so ecstatic. I'm so excited. But for me, the only thing that was lingering always in the back of my mind was Virginia had this holistic package of the community, and I think the NYU community is phenomenal, but it's a completely different energy to be in the middle of the city than to be in beautiful Charlottesville, Virginia, where we're playing softball all the time, right?
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah.
COLLEEN: So at that point, for me, I narrowed down my wait lists. One thing that was really important to me and I'm hoping was reflected was when you're sending these emails, I think it's really easy to feel like you have to hedge your bets. And so you want to have as many options as possible. For me, that was just-- I didn't feel like I could write a genuine message that was conveying why I personally felt like this school was the best fit for me if I didn't see them as being in that same marker.
NATALIE BLAZER: This is such great advice because-- so I'm curious. Did you actively withdraw from other waitlists, or did you just not reach out to those schools?
COLLEEN: A little bit of both. There were some schools that I knew 100% I actively withdrew from. I would say there was another group of schools in a category of-- if on the off chance from the waitlist you're going to give me a full ride, I would have to consider because I'm interested enough. So I waited because I heard that they start releasing those waitlist emails of, hey, check back in with us around mid-April. So I kept on-- I held on to some of those, but definitely the schools where I just felt like there was not a chance at all. I actively withdrew from just because I know how many kids were like me on the waitlist, who would have loved to hear back and release that spot to them.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. If you know you're never going to go there, it does help other applicants, and it also helps the admissions committee big time to withdraw if and when you do know that. Of course, people should keep their options open if they don't know for sure. I think your email to us was exactly what I tell people it should be. Don't reach out to a school to say you're waiting to hear back from them and you're really interested just because you are sort of anxious to get a decision. Only send that email if you really, really, really are waiting on that school and really want to go.
And so I thought the content, I thought the tone-- everything about your email was great. It was clearly genuine. And it came at a good time because basically, for folks out there, this episode is going to come out March 7. So our Open House this year is the end of March. And so what that means is all the people that we've already admitted at that point are going to come. We're going to woo them, and then we just have to wait. We can't just then go start making out all these new offers because usually Open House is a time that solidifies people's decision. So we're going to start seeing deposits come in.
And so you emailed us at a time where we were really in a wait and see mode. So your email gets filed away and added to your application. And so we're just seeing, all right, how is the class shaping up? Then for folks who don't know. we get everybody in the pool a decision by mid-April. So you at that point, Colleen, you didn't actually have an active decision from us when you sent that first email.
COLLEEN: No, I didn't. But one thing that was I guess, a little strategic on my end was I knew I could see when admitted students day was. So I had a pretty good idea that I was a candidate potentially for the waitlist. And so I also knew when the deposit deadline was. And so in my mind, first of all, I didn't want to bombard your email with 1,000 emails because I knew you were busy. But second, I thought if I was going to send a continued interest pre waitlist, it would be best to do it between admitted students and the deposit deadline because that was when you guys were going to be getting data back out.
NATALIE BLAZER: Very smart. Very smart. And a couple of things that I feel very compelled to point out. First of all, this is a phenomenal strategy. I really do think it made all the difference in terms of putting you on the admissions committees radar. I need to point out you have to be a great applicant to begin with. OK? An email, no matter how great your email is, it is never going to make or break your admission to the school. But it's a super competitive process. There are thousands of applicants, things like that.
Second, I said that the content and tone of your email were very genuine, but what was even better is that it reinforced the UVA indicators you already had in your app. So you went to two forums and spoke to our rep both times. And you had written a UVA statement. So like, you can see how someone can write a genuine sounding email, but if this is the first time that I see any UVA indicator in the file, it reads as less authentic.
COLLEEN: 100%. And I would encourage any applicant out there, if there is a way to write why that school, do it. It is so much more compelling when you can point to why you would be not only adding to that community, but it was things like, I love to hike and be outside. And I knew I wanted to join the outdoors at UVA club because I wanted to hike the Blue Ridge mountains-- tangible ways that you're showing that your interests are aligned. And it was those kind of indicators that every time I was writing this email-- I obviously wasn't regurgitating my entire UVA essay, but I was trying to hearken back to why who I am as a person, and my values, and my intangibles beyond just who I want to be as a lawyer were a fit for this kind of community.
NATALIE BLAZER: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think your advice is spot on. If a school gives you an opportunity to tell them why you're interested, do it. Why not give yourself every single advantage possible, especially if that's how you really feel? It does make such a huge difference.
COLLEEN: And if you can't-- if you find yourself looking at this essay and you feel like you can't write it, probably shouldn't apply to that school. That was a big indicator for me of when you're narrowing down. Like, OK, if you're going to do the approach, if I'm applying to-- I'm thinking I'm going to apply to all the T14s. And there were some of them where I sat down and I was like, I don't think that I can genuinely articulate more than a point or two about why I think that I would be a good fit for this particular community, and that was a really great way to say, maybe I shouldn't spend all the time And effort to apply and allow kids or students who are more conducive to that environment to have that opportunity.
NATALIE BLAZER: Absolutely. That is a data point you should for sure pay attention to. I tell people that about the personal statement. If you can't sit down and almost immediately talk about why you want to go to law school, that probably means you're not quite ready, right? So I think that is such great advice. So we got that email from you late March. Then the timing here gets very interesting in my opinion because people think after Open House everyone excels. Well, not me. This is actually my craziest time because after Open House, I'm super excited obviously about the admits we got to see, but we still have thousands of applicants who don't have a final decision from us at that point. And we promised them something by mid-April.
So at that point, it really comes down to, OK, if you haven't been admitted by that point, you're either getting waitlisted, or you're getting denied. So at that point, we're really deciding who do we want to keep around and who are we OK releasing at this stage of the cycle. So you obviously, somebody that we wanted to keep on the waitlist, and then the plot thickens.
COLLEEN: It does.
NATALIE BLAZER: Because you emailed me after getting the waitlist decision. And tell us a little bit about that email and that thought process.
COLLEEN: Yeah. So as I said before, I was in this interim, where I had heard back from some waitlists or even some admits that I was a little bit more on the fence about. And then once I had gotten the NYU admit and felt like I knew--
NATALIE BLAZER: And so I'll just jump in really quick because at the time that you got the waitlist from us, you had already committed to NYU.
COLLEEN: Yes, I submitted a deposit.
NATALIE BLAZER: Were you also getting excited about NYU, or were you still, like, this isn't final in my mind?
COLLEEN: Oh, yeah. I had sweatshirts galore.
NATALIE BLAZER: Oh, my gosh.
COLLEEN: I was planning my trip out to their admitted students weekend later in April. I had written down as a kid that I'd always originally wanted to go to law school in New York. So I mean, we were like fist bumping. We were celebrating. We were stoked. And for me, that was almost why it was so compelling that when I lay my head to rest at night, there was a little voice in my head saying, but what about UVA? Like that--
NATALIE BLAZER: I just got chills.
COLLEEN: It was one of the most challenging decisions to confront what I thought I wanted with what was actually best for me. But at the end of the day, it was one of those gut feelings of, this is where I feel like I'm really meant to be. And if I have this nagging feeling, I have to pursue.
NATALIE BLAZER: You have to pursue. And then if it didn't work out, which we all know it did, you would know you did everything you could, and then you could make peace with your NYU decision. Right? OK. So you get a waitlist email from us that we're telling you, Colleen, you're a great applicant. We're putting you on the waitlist. You write back. And what did you tell us?
COLLEEN: I said that if I was admitted to UVA, I would absolutely accept. And I meant-- I really, truly meant that. I didn't say those words lightly because I heard encouragement from all of the law school application tutors out there that you could say this to schools, and it would increase your spot on the waitlist. But I always felt a little awkward about saying that and then getting an offer from a school and wavering on it.
NATALIE BLAZER: So I have to tell you this. The very first law school I worked at in admissions, we wanted to make a mug that said, If Admitted, Will Attend. Because it started to turn into a of catchphrase, buzzword. So I do think there are people out there giving that advice, and I think it is phenomenal advice if it's authentic and genuine, as we keep coming back to. Because I literally read once in an email, If Admitted, Will Attend. You can tell they just threw that in because they knew they had to, but it did not ring true at all. So you said those magic words, and you said you were going to come visit?
COLLEEN: Yes. So one of the biggest tips I have when you're writing these emails post-waitlist-- pre-waitlist, I think if you can reiterate the why's, that was the most important. Post-waitlist, I didn't want to just fill up your inbox with more reasons of why I wanted to be there. You knew why I wanted to be there, so I wanted to have some kind of action item any time that I communicated with you. Whether it was for this, it was I'm going to come to the school. And I think I asked you like, can I-- or is admissions open? And I knew it wasn't, but posing some kind of question--
NATALIE BLAZER: Because it was a Saturday.
COLLEEN: It was a Saturday. I was working a normal 9:00 to 5:00, So I was a little limited on when I could fly cross country. But that decision was twofold. It was, one, I'd never been to Charlottesville. I'm from the West Coast, so I wanted to make sure if I did get in that this was the right small town fit for me.
And two, I wanted to show how serious I was about being here. And it's-- I mean, I think the biggest difference for me versus some maybe other schools was I wanted to breathe the culture. I wanted to be immersed in it. I wanted to see what is it like to walk down the halls and feel like I was a student and also show to you how committed I was to that process.
NATALIE BLAZER: So like, what were your impressions? Did you get into the school?
COLLEEN: I did.
NATALIE BLAZER: OK. OK.
COLLEEN: The door was open.
NATALIE BLAZER: OK. Amazing.
COLLEEN: My dad and I did the trip together, which was a really fun bonding experience, especially as you get older. I think that was since he was a lawyer. It was great. No, but although it was quite empty, the halls-- UVA has a lot of studious individuals, so the library was still very packed, and it was just-- I remember walking in and seeing all of the natural light in the school against the wood and just feeling-- I don't know. I felt at home, which sounds so cheesy to say.
NATALIE BLAZER: It doesn't.
COLLEEN: There is something to when you have your feet on the soil of the law school, some kind of chemical connection between you and that school that links to your gut feeling, at least for me.
NATALIE BLAZER: Totally.
COLLEEN: Every school that I visited, I felt like just my physical presence there was almost more data points than I could have ever gotten on the website or whatnot. So I love Charlottesville. We walked down the mall. We had food at a great little burger spot, citizen burger, which was phenomenal. I mean, it just felt like everything came together.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah.
COLLEEN: And especially if you're looking at UVA, where the small town-- quaintness is such a big part of the culture here.
NATALIE BLAZER: Absolutely. I mean, it's a great like destination in and of itself, but I think unlike Georgetown, or NYU, or University of Chicago, where a lot of people get to a certain age where they've been to DC. They've been to New York. Even just like on a school trip or something. A lot of people, if they didn't go to UVA undergrad or have another connection to Virginia, haven't been to Charlottesville. So I think you visiting was super smart. I think it sounds like it solidified the things that you liked about Charlottesville.
And again, you're telling yourself, I'm doing everything I can. And that way-- I think if the decision didn't go your way, I truly believe, especially just knowing you as a person, you would have gone to NYU, and you would have been happy, and you would have thrived. But you gave yourself every opportunity here, and the steps you took along the way to show us that you were serious. Obviously, paid off. OK. So then this is where things, I think, again, get exciting. So you come. You do your visit, and then we see how our deposits come in at the end of April.
This is critical, as I mentioned before because we can't do anything on the waitlist, until we know how many folks have committed to us. So what we do is I prepare three different versions of a communication to send to the waitlist, depending on are we over? Are we just right? Are we under? Because we don't want to give people too much hope. But on the flip side, if people are really interested, we want them to stick with us just a little bit longer because even just between the first and second deposit, we have melt.
So a lot of activity can happen in the month of May. So we try not to get people's hopes up. But basically, what we said last year was, hey, we will be going to the waitlist. So if you are interested, fill out this form. And the form is really key. It's relatively new, but it is a super useful tool for us because again, we have a pretty large waitlist. It varies year to year, depending on our needs and the applicant pool, but it's pretty big. It's pretty unwieldy sometimes, to be perfectly honest because we are so blessed at UVA to get so many great applicants that we just can't take in the regular cycle. We can only take so many in the regular cycle.
So we use this form to basically give waitlisted applicants the opportunity to either say they want to stay on the waitlist, they actually are fine being released from the waitlist and to tell us just a little bit more like updates or continued interest or things like that. It's super important at that stage of the process for folks to just follow directions because again, at this point, any little thing, good or bad, is going to affect the outcome. It just is because we have to move super quickly on the waitlist.
We want the future admits to be able to pivot from whatever decision they have already made-- let's say at an NYU or a Cal Berkeley or wherever. We want them to have enough time to make the decision to come to UVA, and we want to build the-- we are eager to get this class locked in. So do you remember getting that email from us?
COLLEEN: I absolutely do.
NATALIE BLAZER: OK.
COLLEEN: Because I was actually had just finished my NYU admitted students day. Was on a train back to the airport, and I literally look at my email, and there is the email from UVA saying, hey, let us know what your situation is like. And so again, at this point, I come out to visit. I had expressed my interest, but I still was unsure if that was going to come to fruition. And was really buying in to the NYU experience. And so it was so funny because I remember reading how--
NATALIE BLAZER: This is like a love triangle between us and NYU.
COLLEEN: It really is, which is so funny looking back because the experiences are so different. But--
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
COLLEEN: It totally is. And so I remember also reading this-- like, we are going to move fast. And so my type A brain was like, well, I have to get this out while I'm in the airport. I have to-- I have to do this.
NATALIE BLAZER: Oh, my God. I would be the same way.
COLLEEN: Every second counts. I can't just sit here on the plane thinking about this. So I literally was in the airport at a restaurant filling out the form. I remember, again, putting my-- I think there were some way that you could indicate how strong your interest was. And so whatever that was, I put the strongest interest. I think I put a small paragraph that just restated a little bit about why UVA, but I really didn't try to overdo it because I knew that my file probably already said the exact same things or a rendition of what I put on there. But for me, I was trying to do as quickly as possible, so that it could give me the best opportunity to be seen. So that was--
NATALIE BLAZER: Oh, my God. That is so wild. I had no idea about that. Well, and people say, well, do I have to put everything in this form? Can I send another letter? It's like, everything you've already sent up until that point we have in your file, so there's no need to send anything else. The form is where I live and die. So if you want it considered, it's got to be in the form. However, we're going to go back to your file before we even consider taking you off the waitlist. So don't worry because everything you've sent up until that point is there.
And again, it goes back to the point you could tell us all these things in the form, and if I go to your file, and you haven't said a peep about UVA in six months, it looks a little bit suspicious. Again, I'm trying to emphasize that from the applicants perspective, transparent communication is so important. Authentic, genuine communication is so important. That's why we try to do the same in return. We wait less than 24 hours after we know how many people have deposited-- what we can do, and when, and how. And we try to give really clear instructions. So I think the clear, transparent communication on both sides is critical to this process. So for anyone listening, there is a fine line between communicating genuinely and openly and overcommunicating, but if you follow the instructions and you are always authentic again and true to yourself, I think that's the best that you can do.
COLLEEN: I agree, and I can share a little bit of a tough decision that I had to make in this. By the time I got that email from UVA-- I think I was only-- I only held on to three other waitlists.
NATALIE BLAZER: OK.
COLLEEN: And one of the other ones that was just a really difficult emotional situation was actually Berkeley. My dad went to Berkeley. I have family in Northern California with my interest in IP and tech. They were-- have a phenomenal program for that. And so they also asked me the same questions of, do you think you would-- they explicitly said if you got an offer from Berkeley, would you attend? And I was so-- my first instinct was hedge, right? Like--
NATALIE BLAZER: Totally. Say yes.
COLLEEN: Hedge my bets. Say yes. I love Berkeley. I could totally see myself there. Say yes. And it was one of the hardest days when I had to go to my dad, who wasn't pushing it too hard but definitely is affiliated and just say, I can't with good conscience mark that I would absolutely accept. I can put that I'm interested, and I can tell them why I'm interested, but I just don't feel like for my conscience can make that big of a step. Because the last thing that I would want is for them to read that, give me an offer, and me have to say no.
NATALIE BLAZER: Of course. And your dad must have been so proud in that moment.
COLLEEN: I think he was. I think it took a little bit of time for him to express it, but he absolutely was.
NATALIE BLAZER: Well, I have to say, first of all, that you only tell schools what you truly feel in good conscience is so just admirable. I think there are applicants out there who will hedge, and I don't even necessarily think that's a bad thing because it is such a crazy process. And sometimes, look, maybe you're hedging, but then months go by, and then that place does somehow become your number one. You know what I mean? So I think you have just infinite integrity, and I think that's incredible.
And you are obviously a competitive applicant, and you were going to land somewhere just great. I do understand why other applicants might hedge, but I think what you did is what I would recommend. OK. So I mentioned the waitlist process moves fast for multiple reasons. So May 7-- less than two weeks. Like 10 days after we communicated with our waitlist that we were going to make some more offers, I reached out to you for an interview. Do you remember that?
COLLEEN: Yes.
NATALIE BLAZER: I assume you do because you remember everything.
COLLEEN: Yes, I got the email at that point. I think when I had submitted the form, I knew in my gut I would still go, but you don't let yourself get excited because like I said, I was really committed to NYU, and I wanted to continue that and not feel like I was cheating on NYU, for lack of a better term. And when I got that, I had some friends who were at UVA, and I knew that this was really a get to know you and make sure that we're securing your interests and all of that. So I was purely ecstatic because I knew now that it was becoming a tangible reality.
NATALIE BLAZER: For sure. So when we reach out to anyone to interview them, it's a positive sign. It means we already love what we see on paper. The waitlist phase-- way more so than in the regular cycle. In the waitlist cycle, we really are only reaching out to people who we have a pretty high degree of confidence would come. Now, our yield off the waitlist is not 100%, OK? Our yield for binding people is not 100%.
Things always happen. But because we have so few precious offers at the waitlist phase to give out and because to be perfectly candid and transparent and authentic, we are so exhausted, it is the end of like a nine-month cycle, and we are like, we want this class in. We don't want to go and interview 100 people to get 20 more people or whatever. We want to interview the people that we really, really, really want and get them to matriculate. So your interview went very well, obviously. You were admitted on the spot. And then again, just to reiterate how fast the process goes-- I think we give you a week to deposit.
COLLEEN: Yes. And you're so kind to not tell them that I'm pretty sure I cried after you gave me the interview.
NATALIE BLAZER: Oh, my God.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
NATALIE BLAZER: Well, a lot of people cry, so you're definitely not alone. For me, a lot of times I start to tear up too because then I feel like this person really cares and really does want to be here. So talk about that week. Were you still kind of having like--
COLLEEN: I think I knew pretty much immediately after the interview. One thing that I found so special was just as we were talking about that it wasn't like you were sitting behind there-- it didn't feel like you were evaluating me. Just the genuine conversation that we had just really reiterated why I wanted to be there. And so it was a no brainer for me afterwards. And again, I made another very long pro-con list to satisfy it with data and what I wanted.
And I started thinking to myself, I know that I'm going to have an opportunity to be in the city. If you look at UVA's employment statistics alone, DC and New York are, I think, the top two by a long shot. And for me, I started thinking more about what do I want my three years at law school to look like. And to me, that was different than where do I want to practice because all of these schools were going to give me phenomenal vehicles to go and be a badass in the city and do all the things that I want to do.
For me, I was like, how often am I going to get an opportunity to be in beautiful Charlottesville in a small cohort of people who are kind, and driven, and phenomenal and walk out of this experience with a Rolodex of friends, who are in the profession with me? And I think that that's possible at any of these schools, particularly at UVA. That kind rose to the surface as my top priority.
NATALIE BLAZER: And it was nagging at you in the back of your mind for months.
COLLEEN: For months.
NATALIE BLAZER: And you listened to that. You didn't just say, I want to end my cycle because it's a long process, and it's stressful. You waited. You waited for what was right. And I think that is just so admirable, and I'm so just glad that it all played out the way it did. One thing that I need to point out because I want to keep in mind, like our listeners are folks who could already be on a waitlist-- either at UVA or elsewhere. They could be getting waitlisted from us in the next several weeks.
And when I was preparing for this episode, I went back, obviously, and read your application because it had been probably almost a year since I read it. I am not just saying this. I read it, and I thought, how in the heck did we not just take her in the regular cycles where-- hand to the heavens? But why did we not snatch her up in January? Like, you had the experience. You had the numbers. You had the essays. You had everything. I want waitlisters out there to know that. There is nothing wrong with your application-- to the contrary.
You have a great application. If you stay on the waitlist, you have a great application. And this is why I felt compelled to do this episode. Nothing is going to overcome not being admissible, but you can be a phenomenal person on the waitlist right now who just maybe hasn't communicated. Or you could be getting a waitlist offer from us in the next few weeks. And I'm telling you, send that email because you just never know. It's not a guarantee that anything's going to happen, but I think it's always better, and you are the sort of embodiment of this. You never know if you don't try. So you have to go out and try if that's what you want.
COLLEEN: Oh, I think you said it so perfectly before. That my goal in all of this, besides just being admitted to UVA, was feeling like I had done everything I possibly could do to be in the best place for me. And it kind of exactly what you said-- when I was deciding to do this episode, it was so important and near and dear to my heart because I find empowerment in my waitlist loss story because it shows the persistence and the tenacity and going after what I want. I was soothed by knowing I did what I could do.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yes.
COLLEEN: And if you can find that kind of solace, is my biggest advice to being on the waitlist and feeling happy with your outcome.
NATALIE BLAZER: You did what you could do, and you were true to yourself along the way. I remember when I was studying for the bar exam, and somebody was teasing me for studying too much. And I said, if I fail the bar, I will be OK with that as long as I know that I did every single thing possible. So I passed the bar, everybody. I probably did overstudy to some extent, but I just say that because you never want to look back and think, what-- what else could I have done?
So I think the waitlist in and of itself is almost a second cycle. And it's like I said at the beginning, you're competing for such a limited number of spots. So like for people who feel like, oh, I was admitted off the waitlist-- waitlist admits come to UVA, and they absolutely knock it out of the park almost without fail.
COLLEEN: I almost felt like from all of these people, they chose me. I wanted to make you proud. I wanted to make myself proud. I wanted to make the school proud. There was a certain level of ownership that came with it, and also feeling like they wanted me for who I was.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. Hopefully this is serving as just a tiny, even pep talk. For anybody who ends up on a waitlist, you will end up in the right place. There are things that you can do, in my opinion, that at least at UVA, but I think at most schools will give you just the best chance. And then if you don't get it, you just know that you did everything you could. So before I let you go, I am dying to know about your 1L life. You were a college softball, like, World Series champion. Are you playing softball here?
COLLEEN: Yes.
NATALIE BLAZER: OK.
COLLEEN: I am actively out on the field, which is so funny because I didn't-- I knew softball was a thing, but I actually didn't know how important it was until our interview. When I asked you-- my one question was, what was a memory that you found most endearing or most memorable from your time here? And you talked about your sections first. 1L softball game, and it was-- I was like, oh, man. I really need to start getting back in shape. I got to get my cleats back.
NATALIE BLAZER: I remember that you said that, and we did win. I think I told you this. My section won the 1L softball tournament, which some people in our section treated like the College World Series, but that was for sure like one of just the whole softball-- the way that it provided so much bonding for my classmates. And I'm so glad that you're experiencing that too and probably just dominating out there to be honest.
COLLEEN: I do. It's actually so funny. I was a catcher. And so now, I'm living my shortstop dream, which for anybody who plays baseball knows, it's like the end all be all. But they put us back behind the plate because I had to do other things. But no, it's been such a wonderful way to bond with my classmates, to meet people from other classes. And one takeaway that I just want to stress-- and I'll use softball as the vehicle to do that. Law school can be stressful. We all know that. It is demanding in a way that even as a former college athlete, I'd never experienced this kind of demand.
But what makes me so happy every day and what makes me feel fulfilled is that I chose an environment that prioritizes things that help me de-stress and find community and connect. For me, that's being outside, and softball, and having drinks with friends after class or whatever it is. And I think I found that because I was so open in my admissions process. The more authentic you are, the more likely that you're going to find what you're looking for at the end of this process, regardless of whatever that is. But I just think that's so important, and I don't know. That would be my biggest advice.
NATALIE BLAZER: I think that's the best piece of advice because if you're inauthentic during the process, you're going to end up at the wrong place. And then how is that going to feel? So that was incredible advice. Is there anything we didn't talk about that you want to make sure people know or--
COLLEEN: Yes. I would say-- I mean, biggest thing is also all the things that we've discussed today are not skills that go away. I'm currently in my 1L. There's a very interesting process now of finding firms and all the skills of reaching out, and establishing connection, and knowing what you're looking for, and finding that is not anything where if you cultivate it now it's going to be a lost skill. If anything, I have found it so valuable that I started that in the admissions process because it's helping me navigate now what my next move is going to be. So bottom line is to say, the more that you're able to figure out what you want, it is going to just continue to compound in how much it gives back to you.
NATALIE BLAZER: Oh, my gosh. That is so true. And on the flip side, doing all those things, and if you deal with some denies from schools, that is also preparing you for life as a lawyer and life in general. I'm going to say for the record on this podcast, you are going to be a law firm partner one day. I have zero doubt. I don't say that to everybody. I don't say that to almost anybody. You're going the distance, I swear. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Colleen. This was awesome.
COLLEEN: Thank you so much for having me.
NATALIE BLAZER: Especially as a busy 1L. I should have been more obvious about that at the beginning. You're a busy 1L. You took some time out of your day, so thank you.
COLLEEN: Absolutely. And I hope to meet some of you guys next semester at UVA.
NATALIE BLAZER: I know you will. I know you will.
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This has been Admissible with me, Dean Natalie-Blazer at the University of Virginia School of Law. My guest today was first year law student, Colleen Sullivan. The next episode of Admissible will be out soon. In the meantime, you can follow the show on Instagram at @admissible podcast. And as a reminder, Admissible is now on YouTube. You can check out all new episodes there along with some vintage content we're sharing to help guide you through this application season. Thanks so much for listening, and please remember to rate the show wherever you listen to podcasts.