‘Admissible’ Episode 4: Paying for Law School and Investing in Yourself

Jennifer Hulvey
October 28, 2022

Assistant Dean of Financial Aid Jennifer Hulvey lends her expertise on the momentous task of financing a legal education. From loans to scholarships to payment plans and counseling, learn how UVA Law’s personalized support helps its community to make smart financial decisions without undue stress.

Transcript

NATALIE BLAZER: What advice would you give someone currently applying to UVA Law or getting ready to apply in the near future?

JENNIFER HOLVEY: Earlier is better. Earlier is always better, because things get crazy during scholarship season. And for every day that I want to go stand in the atrium and just primal scream. What keeps me doing it is that we just have these amazing students that we get to work with. And it's what keeps me going, and the primal scream occasionally, and the chocolate on Kayla's desk.

NATALIE BLAZER: This is admissible. I'm Natalie Blazer, Dean of admissions at UVA Law. On today's episode, we're giving our listeners the inside scoop on financing a legal education. Need based aid, merit aid, scholarships, loans. It's all a lot to sort through. Fortunately, we have one of the country's best financial aid officers working right here at UVA Law, my colleague Dean Jennifer Holvey. Welcome to admissible, Dean Holvey.

JENNIFER HOLVEY: Thank you, Dean Blazer. I'm very excited to be here. And I'll call you Natalie if you'll call me Jennifer.

NATALIE BLAZER: Absolutely. And thank you for walking down 3 doors from where you sit to my door.

JENNIFER HOLVEY: My pleasure. My pleasure.

NATALIE BLAZER: We always tell people the admissions process is very personal, especially here at UVA Law. So if you were applying, and you wanted an admissions committee to know something about you that really makes you, you. What would you tell us?

JENNIFER HOLVEY: So one of the things that I have enjoyed doing for the last 20 years is that I am a trained and certified myers-briggs personality type administrator. And I love doing that. I love helping people with that sense of discovery as we go through the personality type analysis. And talk about what that means in terms of preferences and things that you might be naturally more inclined, or better at because it's just something you prefer.

And also, how to grow skills in areas that aren't areas of preference. And probably sounds really geeky, but I love doing that. And it's something that's very different from my financial aid work, and so it's just a real joy for me to do that with people. So I do that a lot on the side.

NATALIE BLAZER: And you told me my myers-briggs type, which actually is the same as yours.

JENNIFER HOLVEY: It's exactly the same as mine.

NATALIE BLAZER: So I love that. So speaking of the personal, our financial aid office, I would say, similar to our admissions office, does take a personalized approach. It's not just distributing scholarships, and reminding people that their loans are due. Tell us a little bit about how UVA law's financial aid office has expanded its services over the years.

JENNIFER HOLVEY: Yeah, you bet. I'm really proud of our financial aid team. I'm proud of working with the student services team. We care deeply and personally about our students. And that's especially true in the financial aid office. We feel like as our students go out into the world, that the work that we've done with them, helping them plan their financial future, helping them fund their legal education, it gives us a little stake in the amazing things that our students go out and do in the world.

So it's something that we take very personally. We focus very strongly on personal counseling. It's something that I personally am passionate about. I know that for a lot of students, paying for school is very stressful. And having someone that they can just sit down and talk personally and confidentially about their situation, about their family, about their goals, about their dreams, about what they'd like to do after law school.

That's a very important conversation for us to have with students, and we want to make sure that we can have it with every single student that wants to have that conversation, and give them as much time as they need. So we spend a lot of time involved in counseling students. And that is job one in our office. We also offer regular sessions on things like budgeting, personal saving and investing, how to buy a house, how to analyze your benefits package when you get a job offer.

And so those are sessions that we offer just on a continuing basis throughout the semester to make sure that students have the tools that they need to feel comfortable about what they're doing with their money.

NATALIE BLAZER: So before we dive into more specifics of how UVA does financial aid and scholarships, just hit us with the hard to swallow truth of what it costs to go to law school today. I always tell people it is an investment. But it's nothing to sneeze at.

JENNIFER HOLVEY: You bet. So law schools, as you said, an investment. And it is not an inexpensive investment. If our listeners could see me now. I have laying on my lap the tuition numbers for the top 14 law schools in the country for last year. UVA Law is for an out-of-state student 71,500 for tuition. And we encourage students to allow somewhere in to $25,000 range for living expenses.

So realistically law school is about $100,000 a year. And as I look at the numbers in my lap, there's not more than $10,000 top to bottom difference in all of the top 14 schools. So the numbers are going to be very similar at any of the T14s. So going to law school is about a $300,000 investment. So what I say to that is, our students leave here, those that go into big law go out into very lucrative careers.

Those that go into public service, we walk them through how public service loan forgiveness, and how our loan repayment assistance program can help them in discharging their loan debt over a 10 year period. So we have paths for how to do that. But we encourage students to take that decision seriously, because it is a big investment.

And you want to make sure that coming into law school, that you're committed to that future and that that's an investment that you want to make. And we're happy to talk through that decision with you. And that you guys on the admissions side are also happy to talk through that decision with students.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yes, 100%. I think law school is not something you want to do on a whim. I obviously wouldn't work in this job if I didn't believe it was an incredible investment. But it's not necessarily the right choice for everyone. One question that I know you get a lot Jennifer, in your counseling and just asking questions about paying for law school. For people who are taking out loans, which is I would say the vast majority of people. We'll get into the details of that in a bit. But can you just start by telling us what's the difference between a federal loan and a private loan?

JENNIFER HOLVEY: Yes, absolutely. So federal loans are loans that are issued by the Department of Education and are funded from the US Treasury. Private loans come through banks or other types of private lenders. And so here at UVA Law, we're going to always encourage students to look at federal loans first. And the reason for that is when you graduate from law school, if you go into a public service career, federal loans are eligible for loan forgiveness.

Private loans are not. We also know that federal loans have a lot more flexibility in terms of repayment. And a lot of our students leave UVA Law and go and clerk. And so during the time that you clerk, you need those flexible options for having a lower payment during your clerkship. We also that if you then go into big law, all of our major law firms that our students go to have some type of refinancing partnership with a lender.

And so it's easy for first year associates to refinance their loans after they go to a law firm and what their future path is. But we encourage students to keep their options open while they're in law school so that if they're going to go into public service, or if they plan to clerk once they graduate, that they have the flexibility that the federal program builds in.

NATALIE BLAZER: So I alluded earlier that most people who are going to law school do need to take out loans of some sort. So can you tell us what percentage of law students at UVA have taken out some form of loans.

JENNIFER HOLVEY: Sure. And it varies year to year. But in general, we see about 2/3 of our students borrow. And that's pretty consistent year to year.

NATALIE BLAZER: What percentage of law students at UVA are receiving scholarships? So that obviously will have some overlap with the loan folks. But a scholarship in the form of non loan grant money.

JENNIFER HOLVEY: Yes. So for 21, 22, 62% of our students receive some form of scholarship. And that overlap comes to, if you look at students who borrow, and students who get scholarships, about 87% of our students, at least in the 21, 22 year got some form of financial aid, or financial assistance.

NATALIE BLAZER: That's pretty high. It feels like it's higher than when I was here, which is great. So I have worked at a few different law schools. And I know every school does it differently. But can you tell us how and whether UVA distinguishes between need based aid and merit based aid.

JENNIFER HOLVEY: Yes. And let me take a second on that. And I'm so glad that you asked the question. This is particularly a question that students who maybe had aid at the undergraduate level, it's very different at the grad school level. And so I want to take a second on that. At the undergraduate level, students who apply for financial aid can get federal grants. You probably have heard of a Pell Grant, you can also get state grants depending on whether you're going to an in-state school.

And then undergraduates are also eligible for federal loans that are subsidized meaning that the federal government takes care of the interest while the student is in school. Those things are in general don't exist at the Graduate and Professional Student level. And so at the grad, prof level, what we see available for federal or state aid are basically unsubsidized student loans. We're going to offer a $20 000, $500 direct unsubsidized loan. And then we're going to offer a graduate plus loan.

And those are the two types of loans that are available to grad professional students and they're both through the federal student loan program. So in those things you have to fill out a FAFSA. That's distinguishes what's available from federal and state sources between undergrad and grad. So that takes us to scholarships, which is what everybody really wants to about. And I know that.

So for our scholarships, all of our scholarships are institutionally funded. And we award all scholarships first on a basis of merit. That is our first priority in awarding scholarships. For those students who have then been awarded a merit scholarship, we are also going to take need into consideration if they have completed a FAFSA and in our case, also a CSS profile form.

NATALIE BLAZER: That's very helpful. And again, every school does it differently. So for our listeners, this is just the way that UVA does scholarships. If you're applying to a lot of different schools, which I know people typically are, ask about that. And I think Jennifer, you made a great point that I hope everyone remembers, which is this is not the undergraduate level in terms of aid. Unfortunately, because I think there are a lot of wonderful aid opportunities available at the undergrad level that we just don't have.

JENNIFER HOLVEY: That's right.

NATALIE BLAZER: So I have a fun hypothetical for you that plays into your and my life all the time. Say an applicant gets into UVA Law. And they're obviously wonderful, because we admitted them, but we couldn't give them a scholarship. But then they get a full ride, meaning they're not going to have to pay anything, but it's at a lesser known school. Maybe less of a name brand school. Not in the top 14. Or even the top 25.

So they have no money at UVA, but they have a full ride at a lower ranked school. And they come to you, and they say Dean Holvey, what should I do? How would you counsel that student?

JENNIFER HOLVEY: So this is counseling I do every single year, because every student that gets into UVA Law, we know could go somewhere else with money. Because the students we admit are fabulous. I always start with talking to the student about what their goals are. There are some things that UVA Law is uniquely situated to help with. We are number four in the nation in clerkships. We have some students who come here that very much want to clerk.

They have their eyes set maybe on a Supreme Court clerkship, and those are things that we do really well. We also place very well in the top 100 and top 500 law firms in the nation. We have strong pipelines, lots of places, but particularly DC, New York, California, Texas, Virginia are places that we do very well in placing students at major law firms. We also have a fabulous law and public service program.

And so it's really important for students to look at what are their goals. What is it that they hope to do with their law degree. And is there something that we are uniquely situated to help them with. If the answer to that is honestly, no. I'd like to get out of here with a law degree, I'd like to go back to where I'm from, I'd like to set up in a local firm and serve the community that I came out of, chances are really good that you don't need a degree from UVA Law.

I also tell students to think about how anxious they are about money. Because for some students, the burden of debt is a mental stress, is an emotional anxiety that just follows them through their law school career. And it's just something that they worry about all the time. And if that about yourself, if that is something that you're just going to be stressed out for the rest of your law school career, despite having really great counselors here to help you with that, then that is also an important things to take into consideration as you make that decision.

So I know that might not be the answer that you and admissions would give Dean Blazer. But that would be the answer that I would give.

NATALIE BLAZER: I actually would give the exact same answer. The thought of saddling somebody with $300,000 worth of debt. When all they really want to do is go back to their hometown, I say, go. It would be way better for you to knock it out of the park at that law school. And be really competitive in your chosen market. I do think the regional markets, they like to give to their own in a way.

So if you're getting a full ride somewhere, that is absolutely something you should not turn down without really, really thinking long and hard about it.

JENNIFER HOLVEY: Agreed, agreed.

NATALIE BLAZER: A controversial question. What advice would you give to an admitted student who either got no scholarship from UVA Law or they got some scholarship, but something short of a full scholarship, and they come to you and ask if they can negotiate their scholarship? This is the big word. I think future lawyers love to get their negotiating on early, so what would you tell that person?

JENNIFER HOLVEY: I've said many times over the course of my career here at UVA Law that we're training students to argue professionally. And sometimes they just like to practice on us. So for students who ask about negotiating scholarships, our general policy here at the University of Virginia School of Law is that we do not negotiate scholarships. And we do not match offers from other schools.

I would say to students, however, that are persistent about that, and want to make that case anyway. Here are some counsel, make sure that you're doing that in writing. That is not something that we do over the phone, or in person. If that's something we want to talk to you about, we'll make the telephone call. So your initial ask for that should always be in writing. And so that would be point number one. Point number two is, make sure you've set up your argument.

If you're negotiating with us using an offer from another school for example, make sure that it's a peer school, make sure that it's another T14 school. Make sure that it's somebody that's in our peer group. And I would also say, it's important to be concise. Making your points quickly and clearly and concisely helps us review that information and make a decision on it.

NATALIE BLAZER: I agree with everything you said. I have a couple of things to add. And the first is if you do come to us to negotiate and we tell you no, that is final. Please don't ask again. You just have to think about the resources we're expanding. And then you should make the decision with all the information you have currently in hand. The second thing is, please, if you get no. And it comes from my inbox, don't then go ask Dean Holvey, right? This is a guaranteed way to not get what you want.

As I mentioned at the beginning of this podcast, we sit about three doors down from each other. It's not as if you are going to somehow get a different answer. You won't, I promise. It will be the same answer. And it will be more forceful. And then we will be slightly annoyed. Another thing I would say, my pet peeve with people trying to negotiate scholarships, I have seen more of this past cycle than ever before, is people coming to us with scholarships that are lower than what we've given them.

I don't understand this logic. We have already given you more than Michigan, or Chicago, or whatever. So I'm not sure what you want us to do there. And the last two things I'll say about this, there are two buzz phrases in every scholarship negotiation email that I would love to see less of. The first is lower cost of living. OK. I would be hard pressed to find any top 14 with a lower cost of living than Charlottesville.

But people try to tell me that it's higher than DC, or Ann Arbor. The cost of living, you have to take that into account with everything else about your law school decision. So just be careful when you're making that argument. And the second is when people say they are debt averse. So you mentioned, Jennifer, and I would love to hear what you think the difference is. There are people who truly, truly are mentally and emotionally dragged down by financial issues.

I do completely acknowledge that's a real thing. But I don't anybody who is non debt averse. I would wager to say that nobody wants to be in debt. So when somebody says to me, I'm dead averse, so I need a scholarship. That's not very compelling to me.

JENNIFER HOLVEY: I agree. Every law student has quit their job, or they did not have the benefit of being able to work because they came straight through from undergrad. And so no one is excited about borrowing ever. The question is the return on your investment. Because at the beginning of this, we talked about law school as an investment. It is an investment in your career. And that many of our students leave here, their starting salary in big law is over $200,000 a year. And goes up rapidly from there.

It is not unusual for our students who have been out six, seven, eight years to be making seven figures. And so that students with UVA Law degrees go out get great jobs and have the potential for a very prosperous career, as well as a rewarding career, depending on what direction they decide to take. And so, none of our students are excited about borrowing, but if you will allow us to counsel you, and guide you through, we can also tell you how you can discharge that debt over time and help make that a manageable burden.

NATALIE BLAZER: That's right. And another thing I'll just add there's a big difference between someone coming to us and saying, I am trying desperately to make this work. And gosh, UVA is the place for me. And I know if I just got a little bit more money. Here's my situation, and we from their FAFSA, and from other indicators in the application, we know that this is not just a situation of someone who doesn't want to borrow, but that truly would be a hardship.

Versus somebody who it's very obvious on the face of the email that they are trying to jack up their scholarship from us to shop it to another school. And people think that we can't tell, and we can. I would so much rather hear from people who genuinely are trying to make UVA Law work.

JENNIFER HOLVEY: Yep. We're operating in good faith. And we hope that our students are doing this.

NATALIE BLAZER: That's 100% right. So on that note, let's transition to a little bit of advice. Since you have been doing this for a long time. What's one thing you wish incoming students-- so let's say they've already committed, right. What's one thing you wish incoming students knew about paying for law school that maybe is not as well known?

JENNIFER HOLVEY: Sure. So one thing that we hear a lot is, can I actually get enough to cover everything. And the answer to that is yes. We're going to offer you a financial aid package that's going to include a combination of, if you've gotten one, a scholarship. And then if you've filled out your FAFSA student loans, that will cover 100% of your tuition, fees, and an allowance for living expenses.

We can also do assistance for student health insurance, and/or a laptop if you might need one. And so there are resources that are available to cover your costs. And so sometimes students come in and they're just not clear that all of that is available. The other thing that I counsel students is come and talk to us. All the things we've talked about on this podcast, my staff collectively.

This is a true story, there are four of us. Between the four of us, we have more than 150 years of experience in financial aid. And our hair is not even that grey. And so we've been doing this a long time. We have literally counseled thousands and thousands of law students. And so even if you feel like your situation is completely unique, we've done this. And we can help give you advice counsel guidance for whatever your questions might be.

I would also say in the form of advice, we have a really good website. We put a lot of time into our website of putting good information out there. And so sometimes students will come and ask us questions that are really clearly laid out on our website. And it's not that we're unwilling to answer those questions. It's just that I would encourage you, if you're going to be meeting in person, or have set up a Zoom or phone call with a financial aid counselor, use that time wisely.

And make sure that you're getting the answers that you couldn't get otherwise. So that would be some of my quick counsel to incoming students.

NATALIE BLAZER: I like when people have done what they can to educate themselves. And then pick your brains.

JENNIFER HOLVEY: Right, yes. I would also say use every opportunity to make a good impression. And when I say that, we occasionally will all see students who maybe go online in a social media post, and say something that isn't very complimentary. And then they'll call us the next day and say, hey, I just wanted to check on the status of my scholarship, or something like that.

And it's like, we saw your social media post. It's 2022, we know how to use Google too. And so use every opportunity to put your best foot forward. It's great to make sure that you're using all the opportunities that you have to show how you want to be a member of the UVA Law community. And so I think that's important here.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yes, very well said. We do have eyes and ears, and internet browsers. That's something to keep in mind. So I want to end on a happy note. We just went through a lot of technical and maybe a lot to take in terms of money. Tell us a success story.

JENNIFER HOLVEY: Sure. So you gave me a heads up you were going to ask me this question, so I could think about a story. And one came immediately to mind. And so I am from Southwestern Virginia, for anybody who's hearing my accent on this, that's where the accent comes from. I'm from down near the Roanoke, Virginia area. And some years ago, a student came to me, they came into my office to ask a question.

And as soon as they started talking, I said, where are you from? And it turned out that the student was from somewhere very close to where I was from. The student was a first generation college student. They did not have strong family support for being here. And in fact, we're under some pressure from some of their family members to go to work instead of coming to law school. They were concerned about finances, because they did come from a family that didn't have very much money.

And they were concerned about the amount of debt that they were going to need to take on to come to law school. But they weren't asking me to negotiate scholarship. They were asking me to help them find other sources of scholarship money. And man, I took that to heart. And I put that student's name on a sticky note. And I looked for every scholarship I could find for that student.

And they faithfully check back in with me 2 or 3 times every term to make sure that they were doing everything they could to manage their debt load. And they did have to take out student loans. But they were persistent about taking every opportunity to apply for scholarships and checking in with me all the time. When they got ready to graduate. We had a long meeting. And we meet with every graduating student here at UVA Law to help them form a plan for what life after law school looks like.

But they met with me several times to make sure that they had a really solid plan for student loan repayment and how they were going to get through their debt. They got a job with a law firm in a city in Virginia. And got married, and clerked, and came back to me about three years after they graduated and said, Jennifer, I just want you to that I have paid off all of my student loans.

And I just want you to be able to tell anybody who is worried about this, that it is really possible to do this. And by becoming a lawyer, I have now made a change not only in my life, but in the life of my family. And so when I'm having a bad day, I think back to that particular student who remains in touch and remains very, very dear to me. Just going to law school can be transformational.

And it can be transformational across generations. And so it is possible. And I promise, if you're looking for people who will walk that road alongside you, that is something we are absolutely committed to doing, and it's something that we take very seriously and very personally here at UVA Law. So please note, come here, be welcome. Be part of the UVA Law family. And I don't think you'll regret that.

NATALIE BLAZER: I love that. I have chills. Of course, we never have bad days here in admissions and financial aid. But I'm now going to think of that on a less good day. So Jennifer, thank you so much for being here.

JENNIFER HOLVEY: Thank you for inviting me.

NATALIE BLAZER: This has been Admissible with me Dean Natalie Blazer at the University of Virginia School of Law. My guest today has been our wonderful Dean of financial aid Jennifer Holvey. For more information about our financial aid office, please visit law.virginia.edu/financialaid. The next episode of admissible will be out soon. Thanks so much for listening and please remember to leave us a review wherever you listen to podcasts. 

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