‘Admissible’ S2 E6: How To Choose a Law School

UVA Law students
March 31, 2023

With deposit deadlines just around the corner, prospective law students have just a few weeks left to decide where they will matriculate this fall. UVA Law student ambassadors James Hornsby ’24 and Laura-Louise Rice ’25 join Dean Blazer for a candid discussion about the various factors that go into selecting which law school to attend. From rankings to financial considerations to employment outcomes and more, Hornsby and Rice offer advice for how to navigate this important life decision.

Transcript

NATALIE BLAZER: I'm curious. You're both from the South.

LAURA-LOUISE RICE: I'm from Virginia, but Northern Virginia. I don't know--

JAMES HORNSBY: That's the Diet South.

LAURA-LOUISE RICE: Yeah--

[LAUGHTER]

NATALIE BLAZER: Diet South, I love that. Below the Mason-Dixon Line.

LAURA-LOUISE RICE: Yeah. That's why it's diet.

NATALIE BLAZER: That's diet. OK. I like it.

This is Admissible. I'm Natalie Blazer, Dean of Admissions at UVA Law. We recently hosted our Annual Admitted Students Open House here where we welcomed more than 300 admitted students and their guests to grounds for two days to experience our community. It was an incredibly fulfilling and exhausting event, and it would not have been possible without the and enthusiasm of our current students.

Our students not only make this event possible, they're also spending a ton of time in conversation with admitted students about their law school decision-making process. These are conversations I, of course, am not involved in or privy to. So I had the idea to have two of our wonderful student ambassadors on the show to share what they have been hearing out there just casually on the streets from admitted students in terms of the main factors going into the decision of where to go to law school.

So on that note, I'm thrilled to have second-year law student James Hornsby and first-year law student Laura-Louise here in the studio with me today. Welcome to Admissible, James and Laura-Louise.

JAMES HORNSBY: Thank you for having us.

LAURA-LOUISE RICE: Thank you, very excited to be here.

NATALIE BLAZER: I also have to say, today is James' birthday.

LAURA-LOUISE RICE: Oh my God, happy birthday!

JAMES HORNSBY: The good ol' 26, we lose that health insurance.

[LAUGHTER]

NATALIE BLAZER: So thank you for making the time on your birthday to record. This is so fun. So this season, I have been doing an icebreaker with all of my guests. So if you could each tell me, what would your last meal on Earth be?

LAURA-LOUISE RICE: That is a difficult question.

JAMES HORNSBY: I think I already have mine.

NATALIE BLAZER: Oh, OK.

JAMES HORNSBY: OK. So I'm from East Tennessee, and this is where it really shows because my last meal would probably be like my mom's country fried steak. It is good country food. Like, she serves it with biscuits and mashed potatoes, and like the gravy and everything, and it's so good. And, like, I always cackle because like my stepdad is like, so what vegetable are you going to have with it? And we're like, the potatoes. Like, that's clearly how we're going to do this.

NATALIE BLAZER: I love it.

LAURA-LOUISE RICE: Yeah, for me-- so I'm from rural South Carolina. So in the same vein, I would have probably pan-fried pork chops that my grandma-- pan-fried are my favorite thing ever-- with collard greens and something we love to call cowboy beans, which is basically like a fun take on baked beans.

NATALIE BLAZER: Oh my God. Well, now I'm starving.

JAMES HORNSBY: Yeah.

NATALIE BLAZER: I love the Southern cuisine. Oh my God. Yum. So aside from your last meals, I want to learn a little bit about both of you and about what led you to pursue law school in the first place. So maybe Laura-Louise, you can start. Where are you from? We just heard South Carolina. Where did you go to school? What was the moment where you knew you wanted to go to law school?

LAURA-LOUISE RICE: Yeah. So I'm from Columbia in South Carolina, which is about 45 minutes from the border of Georgia, but my family lives in Lexington, South Carolina, which is near Columbia now. And growing up, I spent pretty much half my time between rural South Carolina and metropolitan Georgia at my grandparents' house because I was home-schooled during elementary school.

Growing up, my dream was actually to be on Broadway for a while. I danced my whole life. I realized soon that wasn't going to be a sustainable career, but one thing my granddad always told me was, you need to be a doctor or a lawyer one day so that you can speak up for people in our community. I remember the first time he told me that, I was like eight or nine years old.

And I never-- like, it never clicked for me, but then I went to the University of South Carolina, created my own degree focused on medical humanities and public policy, and I really realized that there is a lack of voices for Black and Brown people, especially in the United States, but specifically in the Deep South.

And the thing that kind of made sense for me was like going to law school, so that I had that level of knowledge and that level of influence where I could make a difference in my community and I could speak up on issues that people in my community don't necessarily have the access to about.

So that was what inspired me to go to law school. I think I have a lot of different interests. So we're going to see of what the iteration of what my career looks like, but that's my why, is my family and being able to give back to like a community that gave me so much growing up.

NATALIE BLAZER: That is so powerful. I could also see the Broadway career, though, to be honest.

LAURA-LOUISE RICE: Definitely my quick stint in Libel this weekend.

NATALIE BLAZER: I'm glad we got you as a future lawyer, but I could see it.

JAMES HORNSBY: And it's not too late.

LAURA-LOUISE RICE: It's not too late--

NATALIE BLAZER: Fair.

LAURA-LOUISE RICE: Career change!

NATALIE BLAZER: That's fair.

LAURA-LOUISE RICE: You never know.

NATALIE BLAZER: James, what about you?

JAMES HORNSBY: So it's similar in a variety of ways. So, I mean, I grew up on a dairy farm in East Tennessee. And for me, like I'm a gay man, and growing up in Rural South, it was always made very clear that it really wasn't the best thing to be. But I ended up going to a Samford University down in Birmingham, Alabama and I had a really great experience there. Coming from a family of farmers, it was all about, what's practical?

And so for me, it's like, all right, we'll be a business major. And so we'll be finance and marketing and we'll do the things, and I found it really interesting. But what I realized was like it wasn't really what I was passionate about because there's a difference between what you're interested in, what you're good at, but then like what really like makes you want to keep going?

And so along the way, I realized that really what I was passionate about was student government. And so in my time, my senior year, I became student body president, and I was able to help lead the initiative to create the University Honor Code down there, and in there, get protections for LGBTQ+ people by making it like an honor code violation to discriminate based on sexual orientation or gender identity, among a variety of other changes.

And I had so much fun doing this. Pulling apart words and thinking about how is this process going to work? Like, what are we going to do here? And it never felt like work despite putting in hours and hours of work into it. But see, for me I always say, I'm a little bit of a dingbat and I didn't quite realize that maybe the law is for you because I was always like, oh, I'm not cut out for law school, and I went into sales for two years.

And I was good at it, I enjoyed it, I sold snacks and candy all over Alabama, but then like I realized, whenever the pandemic hit, that this isn't really what I'm passionate about. This isn't what I enjoy doing. And one of my mentors was like, have you considered law school? And I was like, oh my God, no.

But then as the seed was planted, it was like, oh my God, like this makes so much sense. Like, this is really what I should be doing. And since then, like, definitely the right path for me.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. Wow. I'm just going to go ahead and pat myself on the back for both of you. I'm like already just remembering how wonderful you are and how lucky we are to have you both. Sorry to theater and candy sales industries for taking you away. So thinking back, Laura-Louise, about a year ago; James, about two years ago to your own law school application process, is there anything that stands out in your mind from that, good or bad?

LAURA-LOUISE RICE: I think for me, there's a lot of misinformation out there about what it takes to apply to law school. And that's what stuck out to me most because no one in my family's really an attorney except for like extended family. And I didn't have a lot of-- or really, any friends that went to law school.

So really, I was getting all my information from Reddit, things I could find on the internet, and a lot of things that I thought to be so true and thought to be so important now being on the other end of things was not actually as important as it was made out to be at the beginning. And I wish the things I prioritized at the end were what I prioritize at the start because I think it would have been a lot less stressed throughout the whole process if so.

NATALIE BLAZER: Well, and this is exactly why you guys are here. So we're going to get to that. Like, what are the important things? No, but I'm so glad you like planted that seed because I think it's so true. Like misinformation is out there. That's one hope I have with the podcast, is to help guide people in a little bit more straightforward way than Reddit, for example. So what about you, James?

JAMES HORNSBY: I also come from a family where it's like there's not really any attorneys in my family that could guide and be like, oh, this is what you're supposed to do, these are the differences in the schools. And so so much of it was like bumbling around trying to figure out like, OK, what do these rankings mean and what are the career outcomes mean?

And I just-- I think I applied to like 15 different schools, and then it was trying to figure out like, oh, OK, how does this all work? And one of the things that helped me the most was actually your office being willing to talk to me about, so these are the options. We're happy to talk to you through all of the various pros and cons, and it was done in a pretty unbiased manner. And, like, really, no regrets on this end.

NATALIE BLAZER: I'm so glad to hear that, and I always say, one thing I love about my job is I'm never in a position to convince somebody to come to UVA. I love to give the unbiased because we are fortunate enough that if somebody decides not to come here, we're not hurting for another person.

So I never want someone to come who's uncomfortable with the financial undertaking or who doesn't really feel like it's the right environment for them. Like, I'm happy to help show that to someone even if it means we lose them. It's always hard with great people when you lose them, but it always tends to work out that the right people end up here.

So now that you are both here what are you involved in? I you're both involved in quite a bit. So maybe keep it-- maybe keep it to the top few things. Basically outside of the classroom, what keeps you busy?

LAURA-LOUISE RICE: Yeah, so for me, I was recently elected the President of the Black Law Students Association.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yes, you were.

LAURA-LOUISE RICE: Which is really exciting. So that's been very integral to my experience as I was Historian on the Executive Board throughout this year and now I'm taking on the President role. But I also served this year as the First Year Council President. So that's like the President of the First Year Class. It's like an offshoot of SBA, which also meant that I was like a 1L Senator. And then beyond that, I'm also a Student Ambassador and Community Fellow and all of those little things. Did Libel, too, with James. Just a lot of fun.

NATALIE BLAZER: And James, tell us what Libel is. We've mentioned that a couple of times. What is the Libel show?

JAMES HORNSBY: So the Libel show is sort of like this SNL-style comedy sketches and videos and songs that's all about the law school and it's all written by the law students. And it's performed by law students. And so like Laura-Louise was in a variety of skits and dances, and it all happened over a period of three days from Thursday, Friday, and Saturday.

And like one thing that I think is really cool about it is it's the longest-running tradition at the law school. Like this year was our 115th year of doing it. And so I'm the Assistant Director for it right now, and I've been in it for the past two years. And I just love it because I call it like almost just good, old-fashioned, stupid fun.

NATALIE BLAZER: When you see like that these law students who are like super high-achieving, super smart, really academics-focused, and then they have these--

JAMES HORNSBY: Talent.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yes! Hidden talent, dancing, singing, making jokes. Like, I love it for that reason because you all are more than just future lawyers, and so it's super fun to see.

JAMES HORNSBY: Well, and that's one thing that I always say about UVA, is we value you as a holistic person. We want you to do well, we want you to be in the library and study, but also, there's a lot of value in being involved in extracurriculars. Like going out for the Libel show, going to bar review, meeting your friends, and having a life. I always say, remember to sleep, remember to bathe, the basics. And I think that this is very much a school that encourages all of those things.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. So outside of Libel, anything else you want to highlight?

JAMES HORNSBY: Just a few things.

NATALIE BLAZER: Just a couple.

JAMES HORNSBY: So for me, I am the outgoing President for Lambda Law Alliance, which, for those that don't know, is our LGBTQ+ affinity org. And I am just finished up my tenure there and it was an extremely rewarding and wonderful time.

And then beyond that, I'm a 2L Senator and I'll be a 3L Senator in SBA next year. I'm also a peer advisor. And so I'm a peer advisor for Section H. And so those are our student advisors for our various 1L sections. And so my job is to basically help mentor and advise 1Ls as they traverse the year-long process that is 1L. And then I'm also a Student Ambassador with the Admissions.

NATALIE BLAZER: You two, I mean-- and it's true of a lot of our students, just, like, to see what all you are involved in, it's amazing how you juggle it all. But I do think it just helps you have a better experience and get to know more people that you wouldn't have gotten to otherwise.

So this episode is going to come out March 31, which is about a month away from deposit deadlines. So this episode was planned for that reason because I know that a lot of listeners out there, they've probably gotten most of their admissions decisions right now or they're still maybe trickling in the last few, but this next month is when they're going to be really making the decision.

And I'm just curious based on your conversations from Open House or from tours or just from informal conversations, what would you say are the key factors that admitted students really hone in on at this time of year?

JAMES HORNSBY: There's a few things. So I think one thing I've noticed, too, is just sometimes people don't even quite exactly why they are choosing something, but they just say it feels right. Like, it's that gut feeling. And giving them that affirmation that sometimes that's a good reason to say, I just feel like this is a good fit for me, and giving them that affirmation that that's OK like to say that.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yes. As lawyers, future lawyers, were trained to be very logical, but sometimes it is a feeling. And I actually want to tie that into what Laura-Louise said earlier, which was your experience at Admitted Student Open House sealed the deal for you. And I've heard that from a lot of people. So it's something about the visit experience. And I'm curious, what kinds of questions would you guys say that you fielded? Like, is it about finances or employment outcomes or-- are they getting into that nitty gritty with you or is it really more about the student life experience?

LAURA-LOUISE RICE: So I would say one big thing for sure is finances. It's a lot of debt regardless. Even a substantial scholarship is a lot of debt. But I think there was that whole weighing of thinking of what it looked like when I graduate. Is there the guarantee that I have the job to pay off this type of debt? And giving that sense of security, I think, was a conversation. I also had a lot during Admitted Students Day, and I've even had during like tours over the course of the semester as well.

NATALIE BLAZER: I think that's right. I think people fixate on the number, but they don't investigate what makes up that number? Why is that number what it is? And it's just like how one person's GPA is not another person's GPA. Like, OK what's the major? What's the school? How long ago was that GPA earned? I mean, now listen, our employment outcomes I think are like 98 or 99 or--

LAURA-LOUISE RICE: I was about to say, that was really what I was always saying.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah, yeah. James, what about you?

JAMES HORNSBY: So I think the nitty gritty for me comes up a lot because I mean I talk to a lot of students that have worked or they're coming back into this or they're like, I don't quite know what exactly I'm getting into. I'm really excited, and I know the money piece comes up a lot. And I always try and be really candid with them of, like, listen, I am taking out basically a mortgage to come to law school. And I turned down full rides at other schools that might have been lower ranked. And really great schools, I didn't understand quite the difference.

Because like I'm from the South. I never thought that I would have the opportunity to go and practice litigation at a firm in Washington, DC. And I have that-- that's what I'll be doing this summer, and it's primarily because UVA was by my name and there were so many amazing alums that were reaching out to me at the firm that I'm going to and were like, oh, we'd love to have you, we're so excited. Like, we love our UVA grads.

And those are like the intangibles that I think that I didn't realize, coming in, that were so important and why I joke that, oh, I didn't realize like how I lucked out when I made the decision to choose and go for it of saying, it's going to be more money for me. As someone who grew up with farmers that are like, debt's bad, even my family talks about like, oh, this was the best decision that you made because the opportunities that you will have, really, there's no limit to them.

NATALIE BLAZER: Right. And you could have less debt, but if you're not getting a great job-- and I say that as someone who I was fully on student loans-- like I did not have a scholarship, so I-- like, so I totally-- I would never downplay it. It's a huge undertaking. And I hope that when people get to the application stage or especially the admitted student stage and the decision-making stage, they have come to terms with the fact that debt will be somewhat a part of their life. Even as Laura-Louise said, if someone is on a scholarship, they are-- it's never going to cover everything. Debt will be a part of that. And that's just part of what graduate school is and especially professional school.

And how much do people talk to you about the location? Like, Charlottesville specifically or being close to DC, how much is that playing into people's decision, do you think?

JAMES HORNSBY: I think a lot. Especially as my role as Lambda President, this comes up a lot as being a part of the LGBTQ+ community. It's not exactly a wonderful time nationally, and, I field a lot of questions about what is it like to be queer in Virginia? Because it's still a part of the South, there's still a long history of not necessarily embracing the LGBTQ+ community.

And being candid with them of, like, yeah, it's still Virginia and there are things that you may have to deal with that you might not be used to, but I know for me, my experience at UVA Law has been one that has just been fully supportive of me and my identity and willing to lift me up and it's never felt like a liability in any form or fashion, and that I have this wonderful community.

With Lambda, I think we're up to over 130 members, which is over 10% of the law school. And so to have such a robust dynamic community in the law school I think really helps ease people's fears of that, yes, we'll still be in the South and I don't want you to think that, oh, that never will be an issue, but at this school, you're going to have a community.

LAURA-LOUISE RICE: Yeah, I think from like a BLSA perspective, it's very similar. Me being from the South, I think-- I recognize there's a certain level of desensitization that I have, but I remember even coming here, I did have hesitations, too, just following 2017, to be candid.

And I think because, like James was saying, with Lambda's community, because BLSA's community is so strong, and because we have strong relationships with the other Black grad student organizations and even the undergraduate Black Pre-Law Association, there is a very strong community of people that are seeking professional degrees, graduate degrees that can support each other when those things do happen because inherently they happen. They continue to happen.

But I've never felt unsafe. That's like one of the biggest things that I reiterate to people, is I've never felt unsafe at our school. I've never felt unsafe in Charlottesville specifically. And I actually feel safer being here when things happen and having a community I can lean on that looks like me, but even that doesn't.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. There's something that someone said yesterday, and I love the way that they put it. It's like, there's a law school problem and there's a UVA Law problem. And I think if you've only experienced one place, you're like, well, this happens here. But the reality is, unfortunately, as someone who meets with our peers regularly, there are certain things that I would never say are unique to UVA. On the contrary, I would say that we have a more supportive, more welcoming community.

The location, I mean, just speaking about Charlottesville in and of itself compared to a major city, I think there are benefits to that. While you're in law school, it's nice to have a smaller setting. People who want to maybe take a direct flight every weekend to go somewhere, this is not the place for you.

So one thing that we have sort of danced around a little bit-- and again, I think this is going to be timely, I just want to talk quickly about rankings.

[LAUGHTER]

There is going to be a change of how the methodology is. Whatever the US News is doing, nobody really knows. It hasn't been transparent. There has been a lot of discord-- well, it really came to a head this year, but it has always been there. If you're in the industry, you know that there has always been pushback against US News, but this year it just became very public.

So it's possible that the rankings could change. They're going to be released mid-April. Historically the top 14 is the top 14. It's the same group of schools. They kind of shuffle around in there in and amongst themselves, but this year nobody knows. So for example, UVA was ranked number 8 when I was here, and it's ranked number 8 now.

And we used to be able to rely on the fact that next year it'll probably be number 8, and the year after that. Maybe 7, maybe 9, but number 8 is where we live, which I think is a great place to live.

JAMES HORNSBY: It's a great number.

NATALIE BLAZER: It is a great number. And there's just a lot of uncertainty out there. And I'm curious how much you two think this factors into someone's decision. Like, let's not speculate about what's going to happen because I truly don't know and I've been involved in these discussions for the last several months, but are people, in 2023, is somebody saying, well, I'm going to go to a school simply because it's number 5 and not number 6? Like, I have two options, one is higher-ranked, point blank.

JAMES HORNSBY: I sure hope not.

[LAUGHTER]

LAURA-LOUISE RICE: I don't-- I personally don't think so. I think it's a consideration that people have, but I think that's at the application stage. Once you get to the admit stage and people-- I would assume and hope-- and I'm pretty sure people do like a little bit more, like-- at least talking with someone in Admissions or students like before they make the decision or at least visit to see like, OK, well, what's the difference? Because everyone's telling me the exact same thing other than, going back to what James said earlier, how I feel at one place versus how I feel at another.

And that is a conversation that I have constantly had this semester with incoming students-- or admitted students, as well as during Open House. It's like, once you get to the top 14 whatever-- T-20-- what everyone says, like all the numbers just become negligible unless you literally want to be a Supreme Court Justice. Like, that's what I--

JAMES HORNSBY: Then go to Harvard.

LAURA-LOUISE RICE: That's what I say. So I'd say-- then there's a clear path for you. But I think that's a conversation I had with a lot of students, was like, once you get to this point, you've done the hard work. And like the hardest part, though the decision is difficult, is over in a way, and that you've guaranteed yourself a good job, you've guaranteed yourself good outcomes, guaranteed yourself a really good education.

So I would hope that's not what they're thinking. I think initially, when I was applying, I was like, OK, these are the top schools, but I didn't really know-- didn't know what that meant like at all. And then in practice, once it got to the spring, like I ended up choosing between two schools, and the school I chose was ranked lower, in theory, than the initial school I was considering. So I think-- I hope that's not how-- again, I really hope y'all aren't making your decision based on numbers alone.

NATALIE BLAZER: Well, and I want to highlight one thing you said because I think it's super, super, super important. Like the employment outcomes, like someone's GPA on their transcript, when you see that a school is ranked x or y or z, you need to understand what factors have gone into that number. Do you how much value is placed on the LSAT versus alumni giving versus GPA versus reputation surveys versus bar passage? If the bar passage rate is extremely low, that would be something to look into.

JAMES HORNSBY: Red flag.

NATALIE BLAZER: Red flag, right? I always encourage people to educate themselves. We already have the ABA 509 report, which is where anyone can go and see pretty much all the publicly available information. I think there's plenty in there to make decisions. As human beings in the year 2023, we like someone to just do the work for us, and a numbered list is really handy.

But if you go to the ABA 509 reports, you can see there in black and white like, OK, what's the class size? What's the LSAT? What's the GPA? What's the employment outcome? Do they accept transfers? Like, it gets very granular. And I think law schools are trying to do a better job, as we should, of pointing people to the right information. And again, that's all publicly available. Like, we have to report that to remain accredited. Like so there's no like fudging of those numbers anywhere, or there certainly should not be.

So I think understanding the ranking and then making a decision based on, OK, I all the things that went into this, and so I'm not just basing it on that it's super important.

JAMES HORNSBY: And I think I would like-- I agree with that, but I think it is important to acknowledge that rankings do matter in a weird sort of way. Whether we like it or not, throughout our profession, throughout the schools, everyone has a general idea of what tier every school is in. It's OK to consider the rankings and for that to be a part of your decision, but please don't like let that be your total decision.

NATALIE BLAZER: 100%. And one thing that I want to connect to what you said earlier, it really depends on your goals. You two are seeing the opportunities out of a top 14 school because you both are going, it seems at least for the short-term, to top firms. If you, James, had wanted to work in a regional firm or a boutique office, you certainly should have taken that full ride at that lower ranked school. Like that would make 1,000% sense, and I have people coming to me with those decisions all the time, and I it always comes back to, what are your goals?

That school, that top 20, top 30, top 50 school that offered you a full ride, if they can get you to where you want to go pretty reliably and you are debt-averse, then I would do that. It's the certain outcomes that you're looking for.

JAMES HORNSBY: Well, I think, like-- I did have some conversations. Like there was one person I was talking to and they were looking at another school in a different state, and they were like, I really just love UVA, but my entire family's from that state, I think I want to go back to practice in that state. I think that's the area I want to be in. And I think I told her, I was like, well, we would love to have you, but that might be the best fit for you.

NATALIE BLAZER: Right, right. And if you want to-- if you're going to go back somewhere and you want to be somewhere else for three years, then maybe this makes sense. But if you are very family-driven and they need your support or vice versa, that should all go into it. One of the other factors I was thinking about asking you guys about is family. Laura-Louise, you mentioned seeing all the family and partners at Open House. I mean, I love to see the parents walking around in the Virginia Mom and Virginia Dad shirt. Like before the weekend's out, that's great.

LAURA-LOUISE RICE: Yeah. I think-- I know for me, a big factor of why I chose UVA is because it's only a five-and-a-half hour drive and I don't have to fly home. That was a very big deal for me, and it's proven to be helpful for me and my family situation. So I think it's very much like a case-by-case basis, but I think all of the T14, for the most part, is far from South Carolina.

NATALIE BLAZER: How dare they?

LAURA-LOUISE RICE: Very far. And UVA is conveniently close in a way. So being able to get a top education while still close to family was a big factor in my decision.

JAMES HORNSBY: Well, and I think-- this goes back to what we were talking about earlier, it's like so many times with law students, we want to be as logical as possible and look at the numbers, but sometimes it really does boil down to, where is my family located? Does my significant other feel comfortable with being in this environment? Things-- very much those relationship-focused things that you can't really put a numerical value on and that are still just as valid, and really, should consider giving weight of, like, OK, I have a wife and kids, is this going to be the best fit for me?

NATALIE BLAZER: Hopefully they have a say.

JAMES HORNSBY: Yes. And I think like--

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah.

JAMES HORNSBY: Especially the family and the significant other element is going to discontinue to become a more significant factor as we see more non-traditional law students come through the pike.

NATALIE BLAZER: Absolutely. So I want to end on if you could offer-- you've already offered up a lot of advice, but people out there are really like in the thick of it making the decision. What do you feel is the most important thing for people to consider when they're making this decision? And maybe tied into what is the ultimate thing that landed it for you? For you, Laura-Louise, sounds like your visit-- I think your experience with Admissions may be--

JAMES HORNSBY: When, like-- it was still COVID time, so the law school building wasn't even open, but I know my family and I all drove up here to Charlottesville and like, we looked through the window and we're like, oh, this seems nice. But for us--

NATALIE BLAZER: Oh, that makes me so sad.

JAMES HORNSBY: But what was important about that was because we got to experience Charlottesville and see that, oh, I could see myself here. Like, I think I would really enjoy it, and that was such a big factor. And I'm very close with my family, my brothers and sisters, and so we all came together and having their input, too, and saying, like, I really could see you here. Having their encouragement of, like, I think this is a right decision for you.

My ultimate advice is, if you have a gut feeling, go with it. Like, whether it's here, whether it's somewhere else, if you just feel like this is the right decision for me, I don't if I'm perfectly able to articulate exactly why in a extremely logical manner, even if your reasoning is like the vibes just felt right, that's valid.

NATALIE BLAZER: Even through the window, I could just tell.

LAURA-LOUISE RICE: Yeah my advice, what he said is very true in that gut feeling piece in, like, can you imagine yourself in that place for three years? But I think distilling that down, it's more of like, what is required for me to feel supported and feel like I have a community of support? And that's how you capture the soft factors.

So for me, it's like, one, I like being around nature. I grew up in the South. Being in a Southern city, being able to drive was a big deal for me. And that ruled out DC and New York immediately, which rules out a lot of things.

But I think also, I knew that being close to my family and like the type of people that I met were very similar to the type of people that mentored me and supported me throughout my undergraduate career. So like my advice is, do some reflection on like what does a community of support feel like for you? i know that need this to thrive, yeah.

NATALIE BLAZER: Well, you have to trust yourself. I mean, put in so much careful thought, both of you, clearly put in so much thought into the decision-- and I think made the right one. But at the end of the day, you're never going to have perfect information, you're never going to exactly how it's going to feel, you're never going to what it was like at Penn or Georgetown or Cornell. You're never going to know.

And so that reality doesn't exist. And so to trust yourself that you have made the best decision you can with the information you had at the time without going crazy and overanalyzing, that's the best you can do. And then put your seat deposit down on time. Pay attention to the deadlines. And then get excited! And then spend the rest of the time getting excited.

And resting your mind and resting your body before law school. I think at some point, you have to let go. And you have to know that you are going to be great wherever you end up. So thank you both. Oh my gosh. You just offered such great wisdom for people out there making these decisions, so thank you again, in you're very busy schedule, for making time to be on the show.

JAMES HORNSBY: Thank you for having us.

LAURA-LOUISE RICE: Yeah. Thank you, this was fun.

NATALIE BLAZER: This has been Admissible with me, Dean Natalie Blazer at the University of Virginia School of Law. My guest today were second-year law student James Hornsby and first-year law student Laura-Louise Rice. For more information about UVA Law, please visit law.virginia.edu. The next episode of Admissible will be out Friday, April 14. In the meantime, you can follow the show on Instagram at @AdmissiblePodcast. Thanks so much for listening, and please remember to rate the show wherever you listen to podcasts.

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