‘Admissible’ S2 E7: Preparing for Private Practice

KEVIN DONOVAN: If you're doing a Zoom interview, there's a way that you should set up.

NATALIE BLAZER: Katie interviewed somebody. Katie has two funny interview stories. One person she interviewed recently was on a Peloton while she was taking the interview. Every so often Katie could see a knee come up in the frame. Another guy she interviewed had-- you remember the Nirvana baby cover of the album? Huge that poster right behind him.

[LAUGHS]

It's like, hey, I appreciate Nirvana. That was totally my high school years right there, but why? Like why? Just do the blur.

[LAUGHS]

[MUSIC PLAYING]

This is Admissible. I'm Natalie Blazer, Dean of Admissions at UVA Law. I'm so excited for today's show, because we've talked a lot about careers after law school on this podcast already. Sometimes quite directly, like when we had our clerkships director on as a guest earlier this season. But more often indirectly, and that's because finding a great job in the legal market is pretty much the reason you go to law school in the first place. So naturally, it comes up a lot in the conversations I've had with previous guests.

Because the topic of legal careers comes up so much and because a prospective law student's career goals are so central to the process of deciding among law schools, I am thrilled to have our very own Senior Assistant Dean for Career Development, Kevin Donovan, on the show today. Prior to joining the law school in 2009, Dean Donovan was a litigation partner in the Philadelphia office of Morgan, Lewis, and Bockius LLP.

He also clerked for US District Judge Frank J. Battisti in the Northern District of Ohio. Dean Donovan attended Dartmouth College for undergrad and the University of Pennsylvania for law school. We won't hold that against him. Welcome to Admissible, Dean Donovan.

KEVIN DONOVAN: Thanks, Natalie. Glad to be here.

NATALIE BLAZER: And I will call you probably Kevin from now on. So in this season, I've been asking every guest at the top of the show what would be your last meal on Earth.

KEVIN DONOVAN: Now, that's a tough one. Probably crab cakes I think. And I'd need a good double IPA to go with it and a really good dessert. Some type of pie probably.

NATALIE BLAZER: Oh man.

KEVIN DONOVAN: Those don't go together very well, but.

NATALIE BLAZER: No, but you got to get it all in.

KEVIN DONOVAN: Those are my picks.

NATALIE BLAZER: It's your last meal. So before we talk about how you help launch our law students' careers at UVA, I want to start by asking a little bit about your own career path. You obviously had a very successful legal practice for about 20 years. So what led you to pivot to higher education and specifically to this role in career development at UVA?

KEVIN DONOVAN: It's interesting. I enjoyed being a lawyer and I did practice for 20 years. And I was at a point in my career where I had enjoyed what I had done, but I just got to that point where I felt like I was ready to try something different. And like a good type A lawyer, I sat around with my wife for about a year and a half thinking about what I might like to do and talking to people in different industries.

And ultimately, I applied for one job. And I had my brother, who was in industry, told me that doesn't work. You don't just apply for one job. And as now a career professional, I would say that's correct. But it did work, and shortly after that I came to UVA Law. That was about 13 years ago.

NATALIE BLAZER: It was meant to be.

KEVIN DONOVAN: It was meant to be.

[LAUGHS]

NATALIE BLAZER: So let's talk about the Office of Career Development or upstairs, as I usually call it, since you sit right above us in admissions. Can you give us an overview of the office structure and how those three components work together up there?

KEVIN DONOVAN: Sure. We're broken into three parts. We have the Office of Private Practice. So I kind of lead the career development effort, but I also sit in the Office of Private Practice because of my background. And that office focuses on students who are going to go to law firms, who are going to go to corporations, to other types of jobs in the private sector.

We also have a wonderful Public Service Center, the Mortimer Kaplan Public Service Center. In the Public Service Center is going to focus on everything that kind of isn't in the private sector with one big exception that I'll talk about. So that would be government and prosecution, nonprofits, legal aid, all the types of things that people do to serve the public good. And they do a wonderful job.

And then the third office is the Office of Judicial Clerkships. And a judicial clerkship is, your listeners probably from an earlier podcast, is when you go to work for a judge usually right after law school or a year or two after law school. You go work for a year. You help the judge in the running of the chambers and the writing of opinions.

And there are also opportunities for law students during the time in law school to work in a judicial internship where they spend a summer with a judge. These are really coveted, highly sought after positions. So we have a whole office that's focused on that. And Ruth [? Painter ?] runs that office, is really one of the best in the country. Our clerkship results are phenomenal.

So the three offices work together and the goal is come, you may not what you want to do. We all work together and will help you try to out that question of what the right thing is for you.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. And so today we are going to focus on the private sector. So when people think of private sector jobs after law school, is that for the most part law firms?

KEVIN DONOVAN: It is for the most part law firms, and largely because a lot of our graduates will ultimately someday end up working in-house it's called for a corporation, working for a corporation's legal staff. But the path into that is generally through several years of practice at a law firm. And so most of our graduates will go off to a law firm. And in fact, many of our graduates who down the road are considering public service options will go to a law firm for some period of time to kind of build skills and to learn the industry. Because many of the more coveted public service jobs also require some prior experience.

NATALIE BLAZER: Right. I did a couple of different sort of public service jobs in the summer, my first summer. I was told at the time, and I think this advice holds true, to be trained as an attorney in the US, a big law firm, they have the resources, the time, the money to train you.

KEVIN DONOVAN: The model is one where when I was a partner, I personally cared about the development of my associates. But it was also the sense that this brief that we're going to write is going to go out over my name. And they may be writing a big chunk of it, but I'm watching it carefully and I'm providing feedback and I'm trying to shape their writing and their development. So the model is one that requires and emphasizes a supervisory model for some number of the early years. But this is going to be entirely driven by what the student is trying to accomplish.

A lot of our students coming in will say, I want to go to a firm that has got a really strong practice in an area that I'm interested in. And on a more practical level, it's going to pay a market salary that's is going to allow me to-- law school is a big expense. Not just the money you pay to come, but the three years that you spend picking up these invaluable skills. And so many instances, we're trying to hit a market segment that is going to pay people a wage that allows them to pay for law school, develop as a lawyer, and then they stay on and become a partner at the firm or move on to the job that's the next job for them.

That leads to many of our students opting to pursue some of the larger firms in the country. But we also have people who come from-- they want to go back to their home state and they want to work in a smaller firm. And so that is going to be kind of a very bespoke search to get them to the place they want to be.

NATALIE BLAZER: Right. So let's talk about when a student gets to UVA Law, they've just started their 1L year, kind of walk us through how your office works with that 1L.

KEVIN DONOVAN: Sure. The first thing we're going to do is we're going to try to meet them early in the first semester. We're going to give them a little time to get into classes. But we're going to have some sessions that allow us to teach them, like, what are the big areas that people work in private practice so that they can start to kind of sort for themselves and think how will my skill set fit with these different practice areas?

And one of the things that really characterizes our office is that almost all of us were long time practitioners before we came here. I was 19 years in practice. One of my colleagues was 15. Another one was eight. Another was seven. We did this job for a long time before we came here. So we can share what do you do as a litigator in a big firm? Or if you're a mergers and acquisitions lawyer or if you're in an energy regulatory practices, what are these things? So first there's an education piece.

Then we'll set them up with an individual counselor based on what they think they want to do. And they'll spend some time during the fall talking about different job opportunities, developing their employment documents, their resume, and a cover letter for application processes, deciding what they're going to apply for for their 1L summer, the first of their summers. And that's the way the fall works.

As we move into the spring, we generally open up the whole office. So you just decide who you want to go talk to and you go talk to that person. You can try on different things and figure out where you want to be applying for jobs. These are really concrete meetings. I think initially, it can seem like, oh, we're sitting there and we're just kind of shooting the breeze about careers and law. We're focused on a very specific goal and getting the building blocks in place to get to achieve that goal.

You need a resume pretty soon, as soon as you start networking. So we'll start putting a resume together. Before you make your first application, you're going to need to have a wonderful cover letter. And so the students will work on this and will provide feedback and talk about we think they should maybe tighten this paragraph up or add another example here. And we'll try to get the letters to a point where we think they are a great, accurate presentation of what the student's skills are.

And then they do need not just interview prep, but if you're networking, you need to think about what you're going to say in those networking meetings, because people are going to ask you questions about yourself. And so we'll talk through the story and how they tell the story. The one rule is it has to be truthful. But there's so many aspects of your life you might choose to talk about when you're talking to people for a particular job. And so we'll talk about that and then move to interview prep. So all of these areas.

And if you're listening to this and you're a first generation student and you don't have a background in this, don't worry. That's what we're here for is to build those muscles. It's like anything else. It is a practiced, learned skill. And as long as you are comfortable with learning to do this, we believe we can teach people to effectively network. And we think we have the data to prove that.

And it is a life skill. It's a life skill that not only gets you the job, but helps you in the job, helps you move to the next job, helps you move to the next job, builds friendships. I mean, all the things that we want to have in life and in our careers. So I think it's a great skill to learn.

NATALIE BLAZER: As someone who reviews resumes every single day, because the resume obviously is part of the law school application, how much does the resume change from what they brought to us to get into law school to then go to the firm?

KEVIN DONOVAN: In appearance a lot, because we're very much focused on using format to drive accessibility. We'd rather have less stuff but make sure the key stuff gets read. And then in phrasing, what we're going to try to do is we're going to try to draw out from you what did you do in this job that looks the most like being a lawyer and then figure out how to get that onto the resume? And it's funny.

A lot of times, it's not the thing that you were thinking about when you were in the job, because you might have been proud about this aspect, but this other thing you did is really very similar to something you'll do as an associate. And so we'll want to bring that out. And you're going to have more than one resume. If you're working with the Public Service Center, their resume may look quite different from ours.

NATALIE BLAZER: I always tell people no colors, no graphics, no icons, no photos certainly. Just make it so that we are focusing on the substance of the resume.

KEVIN DONOVAN: So far. I mean, lawyers, if you came from like a marketing background and you worked with your college to kind of put together a marketing resume, we're probably going to change that for you. Resumes are still pretty boring. We're still using Times New Roman on a lot of them, which I think has been thrown into the trash heap of history otherwise. Yeah, there's a certain look and feel that we're going for.

And it's not like they're monolithic. We have multiple approaches you can take. But there are things that we don't think work as well, and we're going to try to steer you away. Ultimately you're the decider. You get to pick whatever you want to do, but we some things work better than others.

NATALIE BLAZER: So what are a lot of 1Ls doing for that first summer? I think this has changed since I was a student.

KEVIN DONOVAN: The nice thing about moving toward a career in private practice is you can do many things your first summer. And we encourage people not to get entirely focused on if they're interested in a firm, you've got to be at a firm your first summer and your second summer.

If you're really thinking about the possibility that someplace down the road, you might want to go work at the Department of Justice or something like that, that might be a great option for you for your first summer to apply for the DOJ. Or if you think might want to be a prosecutor, go be a prosecutor. Work with a prosecutor your first summer. And then come back.

The way things work in the recruiting cycle is that 2L job, the one that comes after your second year of law school, is really the one in the private side that determines where you're likely to go after law school. So that first summer is a summer that you can use for a lot of different things. We'll have about a quarter of the class or maybe a little bit larger some years that'll go off to law firms. We'll have about a quarter that goes off to government. We'll have maybe another 15% to 20% that will go and work for judges.

We'll have people at nonprofits. We'll have people working for corporations. And we'll have some people who will be working with professors who might be thinking about an academic career and can use the summer to learn more about academic research. And all of those can set you up well for an ultimate application to firms for after graduation.

NATALIE BLAZER: And I mentioned sort of that things have potentially changed since I was here. And especially I know that on grounds interview process looks really different than it did, let's say, when was I doing that? 17 years ago now. Can you explain how the process used to work and sort of how it works now? And what led to the changes?

KEVIN DONOVAN: So the process for a lot of great reasons long ago, before I went to law school, the process became kind of regulated by a set of guidelines. And they were guidelines. They weren't rules. But they talked about when interviews should happen. When I went to law school, we interviewed in the mid fall of our second year. And I probably accepted a position around Thanksgiving. That would seem ludicrous now.

When you came, I think probably interviewed in the early fall or the late summer and probably almost all of your interviews happened within a one week period during our on grounds interview process. And then you picked from the offers you had and you selected your firm.

Now what's happened is there are laws in the country that limit the ability of certain entities to combine together to say how the market is going to work. And I think there became some justifiable concern that, gosh, these guidelines to the extent that they are limiting when adults can choose to interview and things like that may not be completely compliant with that. And so the guidelines went away and market forces started to play a role in this.

And the second semester grades for most students come out in early June. And at that point, most firms feel like they're in a position to be able to make a decision about whether a candidate is a good candidate. And so we saw interviews start to sneak into the summer. And now more and more are sneaking into the summer.

I think about 30% to 40% of people last cycle probably accepted a job that they got the offer for during the summer. Many of them will end up hanging on and going through the on grounds interview process so they're fully informed on their offers. But there is more and more going on during that first summer. So they're off at work at their other job.

NATALIE BLAZER: But thinking ahead to already the next summer.

KEVIN DONOVAN: Correct. And thinking ahead. So the summer for us is a busy time. We'll flex our hours. We'll have hours from as early as 7:30, 8:00 in the morning until after 6:00 at night. We'll have weekend hours, because they're working during the day. And so we need to meet them outside of that and help them during this busy process.

NATALIE BLAZER: So then is there still some sort of formalized fall on grounds interview process for people who-- the other, let's say, 60% to 70%? I know since COVID, a lot of employers don't even come here in person anymore. Is that all remote now?

KEVIN DONOVAN: It's true. What happened was during COVID, employers were forced to move to an online platform. Well, the online platform works really well. It's not that we're alone in this. None of the top schools are holding in person on grounds interviews anymore. It was really efficient and effective to do those first interviews, which are usually only 20 minutes long, on the online platform.

And so this year we did offer the option of coming down to Charlottesville or sticking with the online platform for our big interview session. And of the firms that registered, the vast majority, over 98%, are going to use the online. But yes, we have a very robust interview session from July 31 to August 3 this year. Most students will have about 10 interviews a day for at least the first three days and 8 to 10. And most students will end up with about 20 interviews in that process if they decide to fully utilize it.

Some students may have an offer that they got over the summer. And so maybe they're conducting a smaller interview program during that process. But yeah, we're going to have thousands and thousands of interviews at the beginning of August this year.

NATALIE BLAZER: That's incredible. I remember I was abroad my first summer. I was in the Office of the Prosecutor's Office in Bosnia. Selected some firms to interview with while I was over there. Came back, bought a suit, and in August in Charlottesville was interviewing I think four or five firms a day in this suit just sweating. And yeah, you're right, within a few days knew where I was getting called back. Flew to New York. It all happens very fast, but it sounds like now it's just pushed back for a lot of people.

KEVIN DONOVAN: Pushed forward, right. We've all just had to adapt to the fact that there are all kinds of reasons why an employer might want to talk to people sooner. There's a lot of competition for our students and the students at the top schools. And so the question is why would you wait if you know you want to talk to this person? So we've seen that.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. And so the student comes back for 2L year. How does your relationship with them evolve? What are you doing in the 2L year that might be different?

KEVIN DONOVAN: So in the 2L year, a lot of the focus is going to be more on, for instance, tomorrow afternoon I'm going to go and hang out with 2Ls doing a boot camp to prepare for what's the summer like. What are the expectations? What are the things you should going into it? And we'll spend about two hours together working on that. It's a voluntary session, but many of our 2Ls will come.

NATALIE BLAZER: Is that the session called Are You A Keeper?

KEVIN DONOVAN: It's called Are You A Keeper.

NATALIE BLAZER: So this was going to be a question I had later. What does that mean, are you a keeper? Is that how to impress the employer over the summer?

KEVIN DONOVAN: The idea is that the caliber of candidates that we have are coming to a school like this, your goal should not be I want to get a summer job and I want to get a return offer to that firm. Your goal should be like I want to go and I want that firm anxious for me to return.

I want there to be partners at that firm that are planning to put me on their case teams or their deal teams. I want to make an impression in the summer that is lasting and that is going to have impact and is going to kind of create a path for me to the career that I want. And being prepared for the summer and for what it brings is part of that process.

And so there are associates in my experience when I was at the firm that you would do anything to keep as far as comp and bonuses and work and flexibility in where they work and how they work and whether they can go off and do a clerkship and come back to the firm. All these types of things that students want. And so much of it turns on the impression that you make. And so we try to help them prepare for that really important experience.

NATALIE BLAZER: And I know in the vast, vast, vast majority of cases, our students do great at their summer jobs. They also connect. Because your office helps them select the right type of summer experience, they move on and that becomes sort of their post graduation job. What happens when for whatever reason the 2L summer they decide, you know what? That's not what I want to do post graduation. So then now we're in the 3L year. How do you work with them at that point?

KEVIN DONOVAN: We start again. We just kind of start from square one. And if the goal is I was at this firm but I want to be at a different firm or a different type of firm or a different market, we'll work on that. I mean, a lot of times, if it's a different market, it may be as easy as just negotiating with your summer firm about is there an opening in the place I hope to be? A lot of times there's a personal reason. If it's a more fundamental change, we'll work across the different offices to kind of chart a path.

The 3L market is really different than the 2L market. There are fewer opportunities at large firms, but there are opportunities. There's also a much smaller applicant pool. So smaller amount of opportunities, smaller pool. If it's a more fundamental shift across to I decided a big firm is not for me or a firm is not for me, that's fine. A lot of the public service opportunities really are opportunities that spring up in the third year. And so it's easy to make a transition in that direction.

Clerkships are a little different. Clerkships dovetail well with a firm. You can absolutely go and clerk for a judge and your firm will be, in 99 out of 100 cases, will be thrilled that you're going to go to work for a judge for a year and will hold open the offer for you to come back.

NATALIE BLAZER: That's sort of what I did. I was dragging my feet on accepting my 2L summer offer, because I knew I wanted to do something else abroad and I did get this clerkship at the Hague at the ICTY. And my firm was more than happy to let me basically defer my offer, as you just said.

KEVIN DONOVAN: I was the same. And I loved my clerkship. I thought it was a terrific year.

NATALIE BLAZER: Exactly. Great experience. Obviously you're bringing great experience back to the firm. And when you think of the big law firms, having done this as long as you have and also been a partner at one of the them, do you think there are personality or culture differences? When you meet with a student are you like, oh, they would be perfect for x firm.

KEVIN DONOVAN: So students would love for us to be able to say, oh, we your spirit animal firm. It's harder. That is the piece that there are so many things that are measured about law firms. But that's part of the reason we emphasize networking so much and teaching networking and fostering networking is that the best judge of who's the perfect firm for you is you. I do think, and I'm sure you did from your firm, that not only do firms have cultures and personalities, but practices within firms have cultures and personalities. And you might be a fabulous fit for the litigation practice and not such a great fit for the corporate practice.

And so the idea is get them as soon as we can. We have these groundbreaking events where they're in small groups with attorneys from firms so they can start to get comfortable in a very safe setting talking about-- seeing what it's like to talk to attorneys and get their arms around that. And then they progress from that to having individual conversations with attorneys.

And I honestly believe, I mean, this was my case through the interview process when I did it, I think the process of that networking plus the interviews, you get a good sense of the different firms that you have opportunities at. And I think are able 95 times out of 100, maybe more, to pick a firm that's a really great fit for you on a personality level.

NATALIE BLAZER: So what about alumni? So a lot of people, as you and I both did, change kind career sectors after several years. Some people after maybe just two or three, some people after 10 or 15. How often are you counseling alumni in that situation?

KEVIN DONOVAN: We're counseling alumni almost on a daily basis. But we've spent a lot of time and energy in learning the entry level and junior market and building a system that works well on that. So I think the closer that someone is to graduation year, the more they're right in our wheelhouse. But I think we have things to offer for people who are more senior as well.

NATALIE BLAZER: And a lot of firms, I mean, my firm was like this. You'll know better than I do. But I remember my firm, I mean, they know their business model is such that not everybody can stick around and make partner. So there were a lot of opportunities to meet with alums of the firm who are now in house or who are doing something else. And obviously it's good for the firm for their alumni to be out doing other great, cool, interesting jobs that are not necessarily at the firm.

KEVIN DONOVAN: Absolutely.

NATALIE BLAZER: So when I was preparing for this episode, I was on your website, on the careers website. I like to use a few statistics from time to time. Honestly there were so many on there and so many impressive ones, I didn't where to start. So I would be curious. Which ones do you think are the most important to highlight when it comes to understanding the success of our employment outcomes?

KEVIN DONOVAN: Sure. There are different ways you could look at it depending on what it is you're looking for. One easy one is if you're concerned about law school's expensive. Will I be able to get a job to pay for it? I mean, most schools provide data on how the folks going off to private practice are doing at the 25th, 50th, and 75th percentile of the class. You can look at that.

And you might also look at does a school have a significant number of people who are still seeking at graduation? But if those numbers are low and the salary numbers are good, then probably your school decision might be based on things other than the employment outcomes. You might say all of these schools I'm looking at have good numbers.

NATALIE BLAZER: You can kind of take comfort in the fact that, OK, if I go to XYZ school, I feel comfortable that I don't need to kill myself to be at the top, top, top of the class to get a job. The vast majority are getting a great job with a great salary.

KEVIN DONOVAN: Right. And I think that's an important point as people are thinking about this. You're stepping into a much more competitive academic pool than you have in the past. And no matter how hard you work, you may well end up at the center of a class that's a great class. And you want to be at a place where being center or even below center is not going to preclude you from being able to pursue the path that you want to pursue.

NATALIE BLAZER: And recognizing that there's only so much the numbers can tell you. A lot of different top law schools could have great employment statistics. But what do you think sets UVA Law's career counseling and development approach apart maybe from other schools?

KEVIN DONOVAN: I think there are a lot of great career offices. I think one of the things that's probably factually different is the amount of time that we all spent in practice. I don't see a lot of career offices that look like that kind of top to bottom. And that's the same in our public service office and the same in Ruth and judicial clerkships.

These are all people who were lawyers and did this for a long time before they came to be counselors and now have been counselors for a long time. And so you've got kind of the best of both worlds. And I think also just the individualized focus. Talk to our students. We are focusing on them as individual people and what it is they're trying to accomplish.

NATALIE BLAZER: Our students just rave about your office all the time, as I'm sure you know. I've heard stories about getting someone from your office on the phone on Christmas Day or, like you said, over the weekends. That know that they are in great hands. And I think with all the stresses in law school, that can just be so nice to just feel that support.

KEVIN DONOVAN: It's nice for us too. I mean, that's the number one thing we look for when we hire is someone who's really excited to work with students.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. What's one thing that you wish law students knew or did more of or maybe did less of? I know you love working with them. But if there was just one consistent thing that you saw.

KEVIN DONOVAN: There's not really anything in the law student years that I think is really an issue. I think the thing I want people to do is really think about the job of lawyering and knowing it when you're thinking about the process of applying. Talk to lawyers and about what they do and try it on and make sure. Because the only time it's really tough, I think, is when you get someone who comes and decides, oh my gosh, I'm not really in the right place.

Fortunately, that happens pretty infrequently. But you want to really think about is this a job that's the right job for me? And you can do that. If you're admitted to a school, ask to talk to some alums and talk about what they do. And just get your arms around what this job of being a lawyer is.

Because look, the law degree can open lots and lots of doors, but a lot of those doors do go through some amount of practice at the beginning. Not always, but many, many will practice for some period of time. And so just making sure that that is the thing for you.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. And speaking of our listeners, it's April. This episode is going to come out mid April. And a lot of people are in kind of crunch time now deciding which law school they are going to attend. What advice would you give to someone out there who's really back and forth or having trouble making a law school decision?

KEVIN DONOVAN: I think the same way we feel about firms is you want to pick a place that you feel comfortable with, that you think you'll be happy at. Because happiness goes a long way to making everything else work in a tough situation. Look, you work hard in law school. There's no doubt about it. And there's no way around it. You work hard and practice. Being surrounded by people you like, being happy in the place you are is incredibly central to all of this working and to you being able to do all the other things that you have to do. So I'd say that's number one.

Ideally, be thinking about does this school have the ability to get me to the place that I want? And I'm not saying firm wise. I'm saying whatever it is want to do. If you to be a public defender, if you want to be a prosecutor down the road or directly out. Thinking through how that all works. And of course, there's a money component. You may be paying more for one school than another and you have to value how does that how does that play into this picture. But a part of that is what you can ultimately earn on the back end in addition to whatever the sticker is for what you're paying to get this great degree.

NATALIE BLAZER: Right. Saving a few thousand on the front end is not worth it if you don't think your employment is going to be the same kind of outcome.

KEVIN DONOVAN: Well, and this is the thing. Private sector salaries in the United States are on what's called a bimodal curve, meaning that you've got a group of firms that are paying kind of this national scale, which now in cities like New York and San Francisco and DC is around 215,000 a year for entry level salaries. And then there's a long gap.

When you make the jump and you say, oh, well, I'm not going to end up doing that. I'm going to end up doing a smaller firm in a smaller city. It's not like you go from 215 necessarily down to like 175. You may go down to 85. And so when you're doing this as a financial calculation, it's a relatively sophisticated financial calculation, because you're thinking about what's the likelihood I end up in this job versus this job. And you've got to take that into consideration when you're looking at what you're paying too and what you're getting.

NATALIE BLAZER: So true. 215. Oh my gosh.

KEVIN DONOVAN: I know, isn't that crazy?

NATALIE BLAZER: That is crazy. Oh my gosh. Kevin, this was so fun. Thank you so much for being on the show.

KEVIN DONOVAN: Thanks for having me. It was great.

NATALIE BLAZER: This has been Admissible with me, Dean Natalie Blazer, at the University of Virginia School of Law. My guest today was Senior Assistant Dean for Career Development, Kevin Donovan. For more information about UVA Law, please visit law.virginia.edu.

The season two finale of admissible will be out Friday, April 28. In the meantime, you can follow the show on Instagram at @AdmissiblePodcast. Thanks so much for listening, and please remember to rate the show wherever you listen to podcasts.

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