UVA President Jim Ryan ’92 and UVA Law Dean Risa Goluboff join Dean Natalie Blazer ’08 for this very special episode. Ryan and Goluboff discuss their favorite moments from their time at UVA Law, the joy they find in teaching, the importance of transparency in higher education, their ideal ways to spend a Saturday in Charlottesville and so much more.
Transcript
NATALIE BLAZER: OK. And I have a classic UVA question. What is your Bodo's bagel order?
RISA GOLUBOFF: Oh, I go back and forth on the Bodo's order. I love light eggs with feta cheese on an everything bagel.
NATALIE BLAZER: OK.
RISA GOLUBOFF: But sometimes I go classic just cream cheese on the egg.
NATALIE BLAZER: What does that mean, light eggs?
RISA GOLUBOFF: I don't know.
NATALIE BLAZER: Like fewer eggs? Or like--
RISA GOLUBOFF: No, no
NATALIE BLAZER: Oh, OK.
JIM RYAN: It's like egg white?
RISA GOLUBOFF: Yeah, it's like an egg white. Now I'm embarrassed. I don't know they have a thing.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah.
RISA GOLUBOFF: I order that.
JIM RYAN: I like going to Bodo's and getting the heavy eggs.
[LAUGHTER]
NATALIE BLAZER: This is Admissible. I'm Natalie Blazer, Dean of Admissions at UVA Law. Welcome to Season 4 of the show. I have to tell you that with this season premiere, we are really starting on a very high note. Today's episode is such a big deal. We're not even recording it in our usual studio at WTJU.
This afternoon we are in fact about a mile away down the road at Madison Hall on the University of Virginia's main grounds. I must say there is a real sense of occasion recording here in this historic building, which is rather fitting because my two guests today have each played outsized roles in contributing to and improving upon this university's history.
So without further ado, today I am honored truly to welcome two great leaders of the University of Virginia to the show. They really need no introduction, but I'm going to attempt to give them one anyway. My first guest is President Jim Ryan, the ninth president of the University of Virginia.
Before coming to UVA to serve as president, Ryan was the Charles William Eliot professor and Dean of the Harvard Graduate School of Education. Before his Harvard deanship, Ryan was the Matthiessen and Morgenthau distinguished professor at the University of Virginia School of Law.
He also served as UVA law's academic associate dean from 2005 to 2009 and founded and directed the school's program in law and public service. During his 15 years on the Virginia faculty, Ryan received the All University Teaching Award, an Outstanding Faculty Award from the State Council of Higher Education for Virginia, and several awards for his scholarship.
A first-generation college student, Ryan received his AB in American studies with distinction from Yale University. He graduated summa cum laude and was elected to Phi Beta Kappa. Ryan earned his law degree from the University of Virginia, which he attended on a full scholarship and from which he graduated first in his class. After law school, Ryan clerked for William H Rehnquist, the late Chief Justice of the United States.
Joining President Ryan today is Dean Risa Goluboff. Goluboff is the 12th and the first female dean of the University of Virginia School of Law. She is a renowned legal historian, whose scholarship and teaching focus on American constitutional and civil rights law, especially their historical development in the 20th century.
In 2023, President Biden appointed her to the Permanent Committee for the Oliver Wendell Holmes Devise, which documents the history of the US Supreme Court. In addition to serving as dean, Goluboff has been on UVA law's faculty for more than 20 years. And she is currently teaching a seminar in ethical values course, along with her husband, Rick Schrager, also a UVA Law faculty member.
During her time at UVA Law, Goluboff has received both the law school's Carl McFarland award for Excellence in Faculty Scholarship, and like President Ryan, the University of Virginia's All University Teaching Award. Prior to joining the law school in 2002, Dean Goluboff clerked for Judge Guido Calabresi of the US Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit and Justice Stephen Breyer of the US Supreme Court.
She also served as a Fulbright scholar to South Africa. Dean Goluboff earned her bachelor's degree from Harvard University, her master's degree and PhD from Princeton University, and her law degree from Yale Law School. Believe it or not, I have shortened the introductions for these two incredible guests significantly.
For example, I have not listed several books they've authored and their numerous other very, very impressive accomplishments because to provide their entire biographies would take up all of our time and then some. And in service to you, the listener, believe me I want you to have every spare second available to hear what these two leaders of UVA have to say today.
On that note, President Ryan, Dean Goluboff, if for the rest of the show I can call you Jim and Risa?
JIM RYAN: Sure.
NATALIE BLAZER: Welcome--
RISA GOLUBOFF: Absolutely
NATALIE BLAZER: --to Admissible.
JIM RYAN: Absolutely.
NATALIE BLAZER: Thank you so much for being here.
RISA GOLUBOFF: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. It's great to be here.
JIM RYAN: Same here. Thanks.
NATALIE BLAZER: It's exciting. So given that this podcast is geared toward law school applicants prospective law students, I'd love to start and just hear what drove each of you to law school in the first place. So maybe Jim, if you can start.
JIM RYAN: Sure. I knew I wanted to go to law school for a very long time, in part because my dad who was very handy and I was not and I loved to argue told me he couldn't imagine--
RISA GOLUBOFF: In the past tense?
JIM RYAN: Some things don't change. He told me many times that he couldn't imagine me earning a living any other way and I had better become a lawyer. And he planted the seed. And for whatever reason in high school, I became really interested in the Civil Rights movement and the role that lawyers played in that movement. And I also joined the debate team, and I really did like to argue.
So I went into college thinking I was going to go to law school and never really changed my mind. I mean, I was open to other ideas, but I never really changed my mind.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. That's great. And how about you?
RISA GOLUBOFF: So part of me-- law school was always there. It wasn't something I don't recall a moment of thinking, oh, I think I should go to law school. I always assumed I would go to law school. I was also very interested in the Civil Rights movement. I spent a lot of my college career doing public service. And it seemed to me like lawyers were incredibly important-- changemakers in the world.
And I wanted to be among them. I will say when the time came, I also had spent-- I spent much of my extracurricular life doing public service. But I spent my academic life studying history which I loved. And I found it really hard to decide which one I wanted to do. So I decided to do both. But I didn't know exactly where that would take me.
But I did think I know I want to be a lawyer because I want to be a person who takes action in the world. And I also love doing history. And I thought if I go to grad school and I read books for a few years and then I go-- that would be OK. But I didn't what it would look like. But I did want to do both.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. And so what drove each of you to UVA Law School specifically? So Jim, as a student and then later as a faculty member, and you, Risa, as a faculty member and now dean?
JIM RYAN: Why don't you go first, Risa?
RISA GOLUBOFF: OK, I'll go first. I went on the teaching market. I was done with law school and partway through my dissertation for my history and PhD. And my husband. Rich Schrager, who you had as a professor, he and I went on the teaching market together. And I have a very vivid memory. When you go on the teaching market, you do these half-hour interviews at all the law schools who are interested in you.
And we each did a lot of those because we were trying to end up in the same place. And some of the interviews you did, people were very nice, but they weren't that engaging and they weren't that hard hitting about your scholarship. And they all agreed with each other. And there were other interviews where they were very rigorous, but they seemed to think that being rigorous meant being mean.
And I have a vivid memory of my UVA interview, and it was the only one where they were warm and welcoming and gracious and nice and rigorous and asked great questions, and they all had different points of view. And walking out, I'm thinking that place is different. And Rich-- we got together at the end of the day, and I was like UVA, and he said I had exactly the same experience.
NATALIE BLAZER: Wow.
RISA GOLUBOFF: And we both just thought that's the place. And luckily, UVA thought that, too. And in my experience, that is what UVA is. And at every stage of the rest of the process, it was clearer and clearer that those were the values of this place and that it would be a place where we would thrive and learn and grow and have great colleagues and great students. And it was easy.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. Now over 20 years later--
RISA GOLUBOFF: Yeah.
NATALIE BLAZER: --still here.
RISA GOLUBOFF: Yeah. It's going to be 22 this year, this spring. Yeah.
JIM RYAN: So I ended up here as a student somewhat accidentally. And I attribute it to playing rugby, actually. So when I was in college, I continued to be interested in the Civil Rights movement and the 1960s, in particular. And oddly enough given my current job, I became really interested in student protests during the 1960s.
And so when I was thinking about applying to law school, I wasn't sure whether I would go straight through or take some time off. So I applied to just a few schools. And one of them was Berkeley, which in the 1960s--
NATALIE BLAZER: Of course.
JIM RYAN: --was the site of a lot of important student protests. And I had this romanticized view that in 1988, it would still be this vibrant place of-- I don't why I was so interested in being at a place where there were student protests, but in any event. So I applied and was admitted and then got invited to participate on a rugby tour in New Zealand and Australia right after college.
And I realized I was not going to get back to Australia and New Zealand any time soon. So I decided that I would stay on and find odd jobs to support myself and travel. And so I wrote to Berkeley asking if I could defer admission for a year telling them I had this opportunity to go to Australia. And they wrote back and said, no, we only allow you to defer in the case of family or personal emergency.
And I remember thinking, if I knew that were the standard, I would have written a totally different letter. But anyway, in any event, I decided to go anyway and just thought, well, I'll reapply. And by that point, I had gone to visit Berkeley, which I don't know what I was imagining, but it was not what I imagined. And I applied more broadly.
And I applied to UVA because by that point, I had some friends who were already here in the first-year class, and they raved about it. So I applied and then was invited to come interview for a scholarship. And it was really the first time I'd been to UVA. And I spent a weekend in Charlottesville. It was in the spring, so it was beautiful, and I met a lot of people at the law school.
And I left thinking I'm going to come here regardless of whether I get this scholarship or not. And if I get the scholarship, it will be the easiest decision I've ever made. And so I ended up coming here and loved it. I mean, I loved everything about it.
What Risa said about the faculty is true of the community as a whole. I mean, it is incredibly rigorous, unbelievably talented people, but also an incredibly humane place, and a place where the culture is balanced, and people do try to strike a balance between academics and the rest of their life.
And so I fell in love with it as a student. I had never thought about becoming a law professor, but a professor of mine who I took a bunch of classes from, Mike Klarman, I wrote a paper for him in my third year of law school, and he said you should think about becoming a law professor. And I will tell you the main attraction to being a law professor was the possibility of coming back to UVA.
NATALIE BLAZER: Wow.
JIM RYAN: So I worked for-- I clerked for some judges and then worked in Newark for a couple of years practicing law. And then when I went on the teaching market, that was my dream job. And so I felt incredibly fortunate to be able to come back.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. Did either of you, when you were first starting out in law school, envision some version of what you're doing now, president of the university, dean of the law school, I mean, were you dreaming that big?
JIM RYAN: No.
RISA GOLUBOFF: No.
[LAUGHTER]
We can answer that together. No.
JIM RYAN: No. I mean, I always tell people that my career has not gone, from the very beginning, at all how I expected. But it has a through line. I've always been interested in education. I was a first-generation student, and even in college, started wondering why the system worked for me when it fails so many other kids.
And then when I went to law school, I realized that law had a big role to play. And I thought, well, I would become a civil rights lawyer focused on educational opportunity. I ended up being a law professor and wrote and taught about law and education.
I never imagined becoming the dean of an education school, which was a leap of faith on both my part and on the part of Drew Foust, who was the president of Harvard, who hired me. And when I was there, I never thought about becoming a university president. But through line is I've always been interested in education and educational opportunity. I just never imagined that I would be pursuing that interest in these particular jobs.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah.
RISA GOLUBOFF: Should I--
NATALIE BLAZER: How about you?
JIM RYAN: --answer that question, too? OK. So no was the one word answer. And as I said before, I didn't really know where having a JD and a PhD would take me. I kind of imagined I would be a Rural Legal services lawyer and represent migrant farm workers and then also teach at a community college and do their oral histories and write about the history of migrant farmer. That was the kind of image.
And I didn't really think that being a law professor would be a thing. But for me, I was always looking for how and I both have the life of the mind that I want and also be a person of action in the world. And it turned out that being a law professor was the perfect way to do that. I get to do scholarship.
I teach students who are going to be lawyers. I can sign amicus briefs and be an expert witness, all kinds of things like that. So it was a perfect combination of being a professor and being an actor. So I never pictured being a law professor for a long time, and then I certainly didn't picture being a dean. I was a very happy scholar.
And when I was thinking about whether to throw my hat in the ring, somebody said to me-- a former dean of a different school said, well, shouldn't ask the question, do I want to be dean at UVA Law School? You should be asking, do I want to be a dean? And I eventually came to the conclusion. I thought exactly the opposite of that. I thought he was totally wrong.
And I thought, no, the reason I want to do this is because at that time, I'd been here for 14 years. It was my institution. I've grown up here. It's made me the scholar I am, and the teacher I am, and the person I am.
And I wanted to serve it and make it the best version of itself that it could be. So I eventually concluded I wanted to be dean here, not just dean, but in order to continue to act in the world by being in a leadership position in this institution that I love.
NATALIE BLAZER: And you have made it the best version of itself.
RISA GOLUBOFF: Thank you.
NATALIE BLAZER: I think--
RISA GOLUBOFF: That's very kind of you.
JIM RYAN: I agree. You've been a phenomenal dean.
RISA GOLUBOFF: Thank you.
NATALIE BLAZER: Really, really.
RISA GOLUBOFF: It's been a labor of love.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. And this is a good segue, I think, to a question I had, just about the value of education in general. I feel that it's being debated a lot recently higher education and, is it worth the student loan debt? Are young people getting the career outcomes that they used to? And so I know that the three of us in higher education probably have a very specific view.
But I also know you both have children who have just recently done this process or are about to. And so I'm wondering if that gives you a unique perspective. Do you think this is a debate that just is going to continue to come up every 20 years? Or is there something really different about this moment?
RISA GOLUBOFF: I think you go first, Jim.
JIM RYAN: You sure?
RISA GOLUBOFF: Yes.
JIM RYAN: So I'm obviously biased given my job. But even as a parent, I still think that investing in a college education and then in a law school education are two of the best investments you can make. I don't think that this is an unusual time in terms of questioning the value of higher education. It's an intense time.
And I think the decline in trust of higher education is unusual and worrisome for a lot of reasons. But I still believe that the investment pays off. I also believe that universities need to be clear about the return on investment. Not all universities provide a good value. Not all universities provide a good return on investment.
One of the things that I admire most about UVA and UVA Law School is I think it provides an exceptional return on investment. And I think it's completely fair for parents, for legislators, for the general public to be asking those questions, which is-- one of the reasons why I've been pleased to see that various rankings, systems, and organizations have paid more and more attention to what I would put under the umbrella of return on investment.
RISA GOLUBOFF: So I was hoping you'd go first to talk about the general, which, I agree, everything that Jim said. But I thought I would talk a little bit about UVA and the return on investment. I completely agree. And I think that's a burden we carry continually is to show that we do provide a good return on investment. And I feel really good about the return on investment at UVA Law School.
So I'll give you just a couple of data points toward that. So one, we have a 98.5% employment rate. So you come to UVA Law School, you're going to get a job. And beyond that number, a number that I think is even more important, is 95% of our students are going into jobs, and this is a little jargon. So the American Bar Association, our accreditor, has categories of jobs.
And the highest best job you can get coming out of a law school is a full-time, long-term job that requires a law degree. And 95% of our students go into those jobs. And we are number one in the country for those jobs. So it's not just they are getting employed. They're getting employed in the very best jobs. And I will say, in terms of the financial return, those very best jobs are very remunerative.
And I can go into more detail on that if you want, but I won't use numbers for that. But to say the other piece, which is we have really dedicated ourselves to making sure that it is financially feasible, not just to come to UVA Law and go into a big law firm job, but also to go into public service. So we provide financial support at every step along the way to make it financially feasible.
And that includes front end scholarships. It includes fellowships for summer public service work, fellowships for post-graduate public service work, and then I think most importantly, our loan forgiveness program whereby our students who are working in public service, we are paying back their loans for them while they are working in public service. So there's not one model of a return on investment.
One is pay tuition and you go work at a high paying job. But another is you pay tuition or not-- in both cases, we obviously give a lot of scholarship money. You go into public service. And we are so committed to that that we're willing to pay for your loan payments as you do that. Can I say one last thing?
NATALIE BLAZER: Yes.
JIM RYAN: The other thing-- and I'm sure Jim could say more about this on the university level, too, is people often talk about the cost of higher education, but there's not as much transparency. And this is, again, part of what we need to do on our side into what you're getting for your money, right. So a while back when I talked to our alumni, who went here a few decades ago, the classes were very large.
Almost all of your classes were large lectures. And that was great, and you learned how to think like a lawyer, and it terrific. It is now the case that our largest classes are much smaller than they used to be. And it is also the case that only about a third of our classes are lecture classes. And a third of them are small seminars, in-depth seminars on particular topics, interdisciplinary seminars.
And then another third are clinics, experiential classes, simulation classes. And both of those latter two are much smaller. They're much more resource intensive. And they are in my view crucial to producing the kinds of lawyers that we produce that enable them to go out in the world. It's not just about the job or the credential. It's the education they get.
And the education we're giving is broad, and it's deep, and it's blackletter, and about thinking like a lawyer. And it's also interdisciplinary, not just the law, but what's the context for this law, and how do I change the law if that's what I want to do, and then the real practical experience so you start your law practice and you hit the ground running.
And I think that the education that we give is superior. And I think that our students really do leave here with an amazing and varied toolkit that will serve them not only in legal jobs but in any kind of jobs that they do in their lives.
NATALIE BLAZER: I think that's a perfect segue to a question I had for both of you about teaching. Jim, you were dean of the education school at Harvard. You were both faculty. My biggest regret when I was a student from '05 to '08 was never taking either of your classes.
RISA GOLUBOFF: That's what you say now.
JIM RYAN: I know.
RISA GOLUBOFF: I'm not sure we believe you.
JIM RYAN: Risa and I both noted that earlier.
NATALIE BLAZER: Although as Risa mentioned I did have Rich, her husband, for property, which was a great class. So Risa, you are in fact, sadly, stepping down from your role as dean this summer, but you are returning to teaching on the faculty full time. I would love to hear--
RISA GOLUBOFF: After a sabbatical.
NATALIE BLAZER: After, yes. Your much-deserved sabbatical. Yes, yes. Of course. I would love to hear from each of you, what is it about teaching that you hold on to and that's meaningful to you?
JIM RYAN: A couple of things. One is I love teaching because I love learning the subject. And in order to be an effective teacher, you really need to obviously know what you're talking about. And this job offers an endless array of opportunities to dig in, to learn about topics that I don't much about. I can't go as deep as I would on any one particular topic. But I have not lost the curiosity to learn.
The other is I love the connection with students. I absolutely love it, and have tried in this job-- although it's more challenging-- to spend as much time with students as I can. And I also started last year teaching a first-year seminar-- co-teaching a first-year seminar a COLA course, which I totally love doing. It is really fun to at least spend some time each week back in the role of professor.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah, that is rather quite a different relationship. And I imagine as dean, a student--
RISA GOLUBOFF: I feel the same way being--
NATALIE BLAZER: Right.
RISA GOLUBOFF: --dean and professor. And I have taught-- my job is not as big as Jim's. I have taught almost every year of being dean taught something. And I echo everything he said. First of all, what a joy to watch people understand something and to watch them get it and then deploy it.
And empowering them to make the law their own and figure out how they want to practice it and on whose behalf and for what clients and in what situations and what kinds of arguments and the power of the law, it's just incredibly exciting to watch them do it.
And you get the immediate feedback of watching them have understanding and feel that empowerment, and then you get the kind of delayed gratification of someone writing you an email or coming up to you later and saying, I just used that thing that you taught me. I am doing that. And I learned it from you and I was thinking about when I just did it.
And that is just incredibly gratifying to have people go out in the world. And I have these people with my professors, right, the people who are voices in my head. And it's a privilege to be a voice in someone's head. And that it happens ever is a wonder.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah.
JIM RYAN: I'll also say-- so when I was at the law school, I spent five years in what is now called the Vice Dean role. And I was still teaching. And so students would come to me in both capacities. And if the student walked into my office and said, Professor Ryan, I knew it was going to be one conversation, usually, pretty enjoyable.
If they came into my office and said, Dean Ryan, I knew it was going to be something else. It's almost as if students expect that if they're talking to a professor, the professor has their best interests in mind, and the professor cares about them and wants to help them. But suddenly, if you're, then, on the administrative side, I don't think they come in necessarily with those expectations.
NATALIE BLAZER: That's so true.
JIM RYAN: And so having a least a toe in the water on the professor side is a joy for me.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah, absolutely. OK. Being mindful of time, I want to get to lightning round of favorites. I think our listeners would love to get to you each a little bit more on a personal level. OK. Jim, what is your favorite memory from your time as UVA Law student?
JIM RYAN: Oh, when I met my fellow first-year student, Katie Homer, to whom I'm now married. And I introduced myself. I tried to introduce myself to her at a dance but lost my nerve at the last minute and introduced myself to the person she was dancing with.
NATALIE BLAZER: No.
JIM RYAN: Yes.
RISA GOLUBOFF: I can't beat that.
NATALIE BLAZER: Wow.
RISA GOLUBOFF: Whatever question you ask, I can't beat that.
NATALIE BLAZER: I love the law school love stories. I love it.
JIM RYAN: It was a barrister's ball--
NATALIE BLAZER: Wow.
JIM RYAN: --which I think still happens, doesn't it?
NATALIE BLAZER: Your first year? Yes, it does. That was your first year?
JIM RYAN: My first year. Yeah.
NATALIE BLAZER: Wow.
RISA GOLUBOFF: The rest is history.
NATALIE BLAZER: Do you remember-- do you keep in touch with that person who was dancing with her?
JIM RYAN: No. No.
NATALIE BLAZER: Understandably.
JIM RYAN: I think they both realized who I was trying to introduce myself to.
NATALIE BLAZER: Right, right. I love it. I love that. So Risa, favorite memory either from your time as a faculty member prior to becoming dean or during your deanship.
RISA GOLUBOFF: So I have one from faculty member. So Rich and I co-teach a seminar on ethical values, so these small classes, 12, mostly third-year students in our house, over dinner about things outside the regular curriculum. So ours has been on work-life balance. We've taught it pretty much every year. And we have a chair and a half in our den. And it's like where we sit to watch TV. It's smushy for two people.
And one year when we taught this seminar, there was a man and a woman who had been in their small section, first year together, they took our seminar together as 3Ls. They were not romantically involved, but good friends. And every time they would come in and they would make a beeline for the chair and a half. And they sat on the chair and a half together, every time.
And that was one of the best locations. So they got there early so they could get the chair and a half. And literally, every session every time they would sit two inches from each other's faces, and they would disagree about everything. And they just-- they had such different views about everything that we were talking about. And it was just a joy, like it was a pleasure to watch.
And it encapsulates so much of what's great about our law school. And I just think about them and their friendship and their willingness to engage and the positivity with which they engaged, and that makes me happy.
JIM RYAN: Did they get married?
RISA GOLUBOFF: They did not. No, no. They did not. They did not get married. No. They were friends.
NATALIE BLAZER: That's great.
RISA GOLUBOFF: And they had like a sparky friendship, and it was great.
NATALIE BLAZER: I love that.
RISA GOLUBOFF: But I could end it. I could change it. It wouldn't be true. It wouldn't be true.
NATALIE BLAZER: All right. Favorite meal in Charlottesville.
JIM RYAN: So I love a lot of restaurants in Charlottesville. Too many to name. But I would say--
RISA GOLUBOFF: I agree with that.
JIM RYAN: Yeah, really, honestly. It punches way above its weight when it comes to restaurants.
NATALIE BLAZER: Agreed.
JIM RYAN: But my favorite meal still is a home-cooked meal with family and friends.
NATALIE BLAZER: Oh.
JIM RYAN: I know.
RISA GOLUBOFF: You always go for the heartstrings.
JIM RYAN: With heavy eggs.
NATALIE BLAZER: Heavy eggs. So hypothetically, if you were both-- if it was your last meal in Charlottesville and you had to go to a dinner restaurant, where would you go?
JIM RYAN: I would go to the CNO--
NATALIE BLAZER: Ugh, such a great choice.
JIM RYAN: --because it's classic, honestly. And I went on dates with Katie when we were in law school there. We celebrated anniversaries. So--
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah, It's very special
JIM RYAN: --the food is phenomenal, the setting is great, but it also has a lot of sentimental value.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah.
RISA GOLUBOFF: I have too many. I really love Ten for Japanese. I love Fleurie for French. I love Oak Heart Socials.
NATALIE BLAZER: Oh, fun.
RISA GOLUBOFF: So good. I love-- what's the new steak place called? That--
NATALIE BLAZER: Black Cow.
RISA GOLUBOFF: Black Cow is delicious. I just think Smyrna, new--
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah.
JIM RYAN: So good.
RISA GOLUBOFF: --Middle Eastern place, so good.
NATALIE BLAZER: I still have not been there.
JIM RYAN: It's very good.
RISA GOLUBOFF: I-- yeah, so.
JIM RYAN: Tavola.
RISA GOLUBOFF: Lots of-- oh, Tavola's really good. Yeah.
JIM RYAN: Is it Tavola or "Ta-vole-uh?"
RISA GOLUBOFF: I don't know.
JIM RYAN: You say Tavola. I say Tavola.
RISA GOLUBOFF: Exactly. You say heavy eggs, I say light eggs.
JIM RYAN: There's Mas.
RISA GOLUBOFF: Mas is great, too.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah.
RISA GOLUBOFF: Yeah.
NATALIE BLAZER: And Mas--
RISA GOLUBOFF: So many good places.
NATALIE BLAZER: Mas. Those were--
JIM RYAN: Mas has been around for a while.
NATALIE BLAZER: Right, exactly. Those were two of the only ones that were here when I was a student. Favorite way to spend a Saturday, besides eating which we all clearly like to do?
JIM RYAN: So I would say one of three things, not all mutually exclusive. One would be going for a long run. Another one would be going for a hike. And a third would be going to a UVA sporting event.
NATALIE BLAZER: I love it.
RISA GOLUBOFF: I like all of those. I would add, especially on a Saturday, one of our two or both farmer's markets, which are fabulous. I go to the farmer's market most weeks when it's open. In fact, I was at Ix Park last night and I was saying how sad it is between January and April 1, because otherwise it's open all year.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah.
RISA GOLUBOFF: That there's no farmer's market, so that would definitely be a thing. I love going fruit picking. There's all kinds of fruit picking, depending on the season. Love fruit picking. There are all kinds of arts to go to. Plays and musical performances, that would be a thing.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah.
RISA GOLUBOFF: Playing games, I like playing games with my kids. Yeah.
JIM RYAN: The farmers market is such a good answer. I aspire to be-- I really aspire to be the kind of person who goes to a farmer's market, but I never get my act together.
NATALIE BLAZER: You can't go to the one at Ix without running into somebody.
RISA GOLUBOFF: Let me just say. There are people who go to the farmers market and like really shop there. They do like a lot of their shopping, local.
JIM RYAN: Yeah, I know. I know
RISA GOLUBOFF: I will buy some things at the farm. But I really go to the farmer's market to eat the prepared foods, which are really good, and to see people. And so you can spend hours at the farmer's market. My father was-- my parents were once visiting. We were the farmers market. And my father said at one point, is there anyone you don't know? Yeah, it's just it's--
JIM RYAN: It's Charlottesville.
RISA GOLUBOFF: --a lovely, social. It's beautiful. There's great food. There's lovely crafts, sweet people. It makes you feel good--
NATALIE BLAZER: It's so-- yes.
RISA GOLUBOFF: --about Charlottesville.
JIM RYAN: That's why I'm going to continue to plan to go.
RISA GOLUBOFF: We can meet there together.
NATALIE BLAZER: It is the community feeling that I love.
RISA GOLUBOFF: It is. It is.
NATALIE BLAZER: OK. This might be our last question. For someone out there listening, which is probably most people who are listening to this show who are considering going to law school, what advice would you give that person? And this could be the same as something you wish you had known or just before you went to law school or just general advice.
JIM RYAN: Well, I guess my suggestion would be go. If you're wondering about whether to attend law school, attend it. I still think that it is one of the most versatile degrees you can obtain. And it opens up all sorts of doors, some that are obvious, but others that are not.
And the education that you receive, not just the degree, but the education that you receive is useful across an awful lot of domains. I mean, it's a cliche to say you learn how to think like a lawyer but there is something to it. You learn how to assess problems. You learn how to deal with conflicting interpretations. You learn how to engage in disagreements in a civil way.
You learn how to think in a linear fashion and in an analytical way, but without I think losing the ability to think creatively. So if you are at all wondering about whether going to law school, back to the question, is a worthwhile investment. I think should feel pretty confident that it is.
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah.
RISA GOLUBOFF: I'd I'll say two things. So one in terms of advice, a lot of students say to me when they first arrive or prospective students, I don't what I want to do. And you can't what you want to do. You don't anything about this yet. So don't think-- adding on to Jim, don't think just because you don't have a specific field or a specific goal, that means you don't really want to go to law school. I don't think that's true.
And most people who come even thinking that what they want to do really don't because they just don't know the law. So that's part of the process. And you're going to have lots of opportunities to take to figure out what you're interested in. By which, I mean not just a subject, but practice areas are all different. And you don't that until you get into it.
So you might be interested in environmental law, but the way the work is might not actually be the way you want to think or the way you want to act. Some are one big case, some are lots of little cases, some last years, others last a day. Some, you're on your feet in court all the time. Others, you're reading and writing all the time. Some are intensely social. Others are not.
So you've got to learn all that. And you can take lots of opportunities in law school through clinics, through pro bono work, through summer internships, through research assistantships. There are all kinds of ways to find that out. You don't have to it before you come. There will be opportunities.
The second thing I'll say because this is our UVA Law podcast and I am the Dean of UVA Law School is you should not only go, but if you have the opportunity to come to UVA--
JIM RYAN: Nice point.
RISA GOLUBOFF: --you should come to UVA. And I will say one thing about that, on top of all the other things that we've said, which is I think that sometimes people who hear us emphasizing that you're happy here and how well-rounded our students are, and how much balance there is, and what a community we are, think that we're saying that because we're not also rigorous with the best career outcomes and amazing education-- and I think they think it's an either/or.
And I know maybe students today haven't seen when Harry Met Sally. But there's a great scene in when Harry Met Sally when he's trying to set his friend up on a date and he says that Sally is attractive and has a great personality. And he says, well, which one is it? Is she attractive, or does she have a good personality? And he says she's both.
And we emphasize the community and the joy and the friendships and the balance because we think most places don't have that. And that's really unique. But that's on top of all the other things. And you come to UVA, and you're going to get the best education and the best career opportunities and amazing career outcomes. And you're going to get to enjoy yourself and have a wonderful three years.
And also this goes to something Jim was just saying, the community and the collegiality and the friendships are not only a good intrinsically in themselves for the three years you're here, they also make you better lawyers. They also make you more able to have conversations across difference. And there's a reason that we're overrepresented among general counsels and managing partners.
It's because our students have social skills that they've honed while they were in law school. And they want to interact with other people, and they want to hear from people who disagree with them. And that's why they've partly chosen UVA. And we're a big tent, and we're a happy place. And it's going to be good for you for the whole rest of your life. And I'll say it can make you a university president.
JIM RYAN: If you're not careful. So I agree with all of that. But tell me if you agree with this. That is true but students might still find the first semester of law school difficult and disorienting in part because you're really learning an entirely new language. And I remember feeling a little bit at sea.
And so the thing I wish I knew before coming in was that it would be difficult in part because for me anyway learning a new language is difficult. And just like parents when you ask them after their kids are, I don't know, 20, did you like parenting? They say absolutely, it was great.
They don't recall or dwell on the first three months where, for me, anyway, all I kept hearing was, you're going to love being a parent. In my first three months, I thought there's something wrong with me. I am not-- I am not seeing it. And so I would let students know and I would tell myself that give yourself some time. You will get acclimated, but it may be hard at first, and it may be disorienting.
And if you're thinking that everyone else is having the time of their lives from day one, first of all, that's not true. But second of all, you're going to make yourself feel worse. It will come. You need to give it a little bit of time.
RISA GOLUBOFF: I totally agree with that. And I often say the first semester of law school is like the early days of parenting.
JIM RYAN: Nice.
RISA GOLUBOFF: I say that all the time. So I'm totally with you. And I think it's like that also in that it feels like it's never going to end. And then one day you wake up and you're on the other side.
JIM RYAN: Yeah. But then you forget.
RISA GOLUBOFF: Yes. Then you forget. And then you have four kids.
JIM RYAN: Yeah, exactly.
RISA GOLUBOFF: Your case, right. I had two.
JIM RYAN: Right, that's how it happens.
RISA GOLUBOFF: But that's-- yeah. Because you forgot. And you don't know what you don't know, and the learning curve is so-- there are so many ways. I think it's a really apt analogy. Can I have one last thing?
NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah.
RISA GOLUBOFF: I do think it's very hard. And I think part of what's hard is, what I just I said earlier about we have these three types of classes, but we really think the first thing you have to learn is the thinking like a lawyer.
JIM RYAN: Yeah.
RISA GOLUBOFF: And so the classes that you take when you first arrive in law school are purposefully chosen. They are really all about the kind of problem-solving and linear and analytical thinking that you were talking about, Jim. And it's really foreign. And it can be really foreign, not just for your brain but for your heart.
So if you've come to law school because you want to be an immigration lawyer, and you've come to law school for whatever it is that you want to do, you're not going to do that in your first semester. And I think a lot of people feel alienated from the reasons they came. And I think it's really important to know that the curriculum is purposefully done to help you learn this new way of thinking.
And after that semester, you're going to broaden back out, and you're going to get to do the things you want to do, and that during the semester, I think the things that can help are talking to your professors about why they teach the way they do and finding pro bono opportunities and other outlets to remember why you've come.
Even though in the classroom, it might feel like you're not doing what you thought you were going to do, it's going to come. And then the last thing I'll say, and I think you'll agree with this, too, it's really hard, but doing it at UVA makes it easier and better.
It's still hard at UVA, but doing it in an environment where people have your back, where there is collegiality and camaraderie, I think, from what I hear from our students really does make a difference. It's still really intellectually challenging in all the ways that you were saying, but having a social support and having the kind of community that we have at UVA, I think, helps get people through in a really positive way.
JIM RYAN: I agree. And I assume you still have sort of peer mentoring, which I think is enormously helpful because you're hearing from second- and third-year students who remember that the first semester can be hard and are encouraging and offer not just support but advice.
RISA GOLUBOFF: Yeah.
JIM RYAN: And that makes a world of difference because you don't feel like you're just cast into the ocean and people are going to stand on the shore and see if you can swim.
NATALIE BLAZER: Right. My peer advisors were definitely that for me. And I will also say it's supposed to feel hard. So when-- a lot of 1Ls come by our office because we are sort of their most recent point of contact, and they say I don't understand anything. And I usually say that's not a bad sign. If you think that understand everything--
RISA GOLUBOFF: You probably don't.
NATALIE BLAZER: You probably don't.
JIM RYAN: Right. So you mentioned peer advisors. Were they the ones who told you not to take a class from me?
RISA GOLUBOFF: Because maybe they're not so great.
[LAUGHTER]
NATALIE BLAZER: Well, on that note--
RISA GOLUBOFF: No, they are great. They are great.
NATALIE BLAZER: It was even better than I was thinking it would be to have you both on the show. This was amazing. Thank you both. Your schedules, I know, are impossible. So thank you so much for coming on the show. It was really an honor.
JIM RYAN: Yeah, totally my pleasure. Thank you.
RISA GOLUBOFF: This was great. Really fun. Thanks, Natalie.
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NATALIE BLAZER: This has been Admissible, with me Dean Natalie Blazer at the University of Virginia School of Law. My guest today were University of Virginia President Jim Ryan and the Dean of UVA Law School Risa Goluboff. For more information about UVA Law, please visit law.virginia.edu.
The next episode of Admissible will be out soon. In the meantime, you can follow the show on Instagram at @admissible podcast. Thanks so much for listening. And please remember to rate the show wherever you listen to podcasts.