‘Admissible’ Episode 7: Clinics at UVA Law — The Innocence Project and More

NATALIE BLAZER: So based on your experience in your clinic so far, the part in Legally Blonde where Elle Woods is cross-examining the murder suspect as a 1L, is that realistic?

CASEY SCHMIDT: Unfortunately, I haven't cross-examined any murder suspects yet in open court. Maybe when you get your three L practice certificate.

NATALIE BLAZER: This is Admissible. I'm Natalie Blazer, Dean of Admissions at UVA Law. On today's episode, we're talking about a topic I field questions about all the time, clinics. Prospective students are always asking about our various clinical offerings, which they are very smart to do, because we have an amazing clinical program here at UVA Law.

I'm also asked quite often about how the clinic application process works, how competitive the clinics are to get into, and what specific type of work the clinics do. I'm thrilled to be able to give you all of these answers and more straight from one of our students, who is currently working in a clinic.

My guest today is second year law student Casey Schmidt. Casey is a double who having graduated from UVA undergrad in 2018. Prior to law school, Casey worked as an analyst at Kobre & Kim in Washington DC for three years.

At UVA Law, Casey is an editor of the Virginia Law Review, a member of the extramural moot court team, and serves as the law school's representative to the University Judiciary Committee. In addition to those highly impressive accolades, Casey is also one of our amazing student ambassadors and has helped our office tremendously with our various recruiting efforts. Welcome to Admissible, Casey.

CASEY SCHMIDT: Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be here.

NATALIE BLAZER: Oh, it's so fun seeing you again. I still remember our interview two years ago. One of the best. I like to kick off every episode, Casey, with a fun fact about our guest, even though all the facts I already listed in your bio are very fun.

So when you were applying to law school a couple of years ago, what's one thing you wanted to make sure the Admissions Committee knew about through your application materials in order to get to you better?

CASEY SCHMIDT: Sure. So I actually won a national championship in mock trial in both high school and in college. So not only have I been a nerd for a long time, but I've also been thinking about law school for a while. So that was something that I definitely wanted to get across when I was applying to schools.

NATALIE BLAZER: In case you all can't tell, Casey is quite the overachiever. Very, very impressive. I love it. So let's talk clinics, Casey. First, for any listeners out there who may not be sure what we mean when we use the term clinic as it relates to a law school curriculum, can you just give us a general overview of what a law school clinic is compared to a doctrinal course, for example?

CASEY SCHMIDT: Sure. So I think the big thing that distinguishes it is it's more of a task or project based class rather than an exam or paper class. In a lot of classes in law school, you spend all semester doing a lot of readings. And then you get to the end of the semester, and you prepare a big paper or you take a big exam.

And a clinic is really an inverted model where instead of working towards some big project or some big exam, you really spend all semester working on individual cases or projects related to cases in your clinic. These could be things like drafting pleadings, conducting interviews with clients or witnesses.

And in some clinics, you might even be able to stand up and argue things in a courtroom.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. And I think of it also as in, let's say, your first year courses, you're reading about clients and cases and precedent and hypotheticals, for example. In clinic, you are doing real world work. Right. These are not hypothetical people or cases.

CASEY SCHMIDT: No. That's exactly right. You're either serving real clients or serving in real way institutions or organizations here in the local community. And that can be really covering a broad array of topics. I mean, we have clinics and everything from Supreme Court and Appellate litigation, environmental law, both prosecution and defense, civil rights, youth advocacy.

I mean, that's just to name a few. I think we have 24 clinics. So if there's something you're interested in, you can really not only get to learn more about that topic but learn more by doing and rather than just reading cases and taking an exam to learn.

NATALIE BLAZER: If anyone out there thinks that sounds almost a little scary to be working with real clients in cases, I do want to make sure everyone knows the faculty supervisor of the clinic is really the attorney of record. Meaning, they're the ones licensed to practice law.

So while the clinic students are doing all the work, they're writing the briefs, they're taking the meetings, it's really the supervising faculty who is on the hook, so to speak, for any legal outcome. I think a lot of employers love to see clinical experience on a resume, because that to them says, this person has actually been doing this. They haven't just been in the hypothetical setting, which leads me to a question about workload.

Obviously, any law school class is a lot of work. But in terms of credits and things like that, can you talk a little bit about how maybe the time commitment or the credit is different in a clinic?

CASEY SCHMIDT: Sure. Yeah. So clinics are usually four-- they can be four credits, I think, is kind of standard. And I think one thing that is unique about it is while you have the same or more credits than an average class, you actually spend less time in the classroom.

Most of your time as we've been talking about is dedicated to actually working on projects and doing things. I think a lot of clinics, and this is the one-- mine uses a 12 to 15 hours a week rough guide for the work you're doing.

And I think one thing that is nice about that is the work from the clinic is scattered throughout all of that semester or all of that year that you're working on it. And then when you get to exams, you aren't preparing for a final in that class. You're not preparing a big paper in that class.

And so I think for someone who likes to be busy and have that sort type of work going on, you're able to spread your commitment to it throughout the semester in a way then you're not cramming everything at the end like are in some classes.

NATALIE BLAZER: Yeah. That's great. Well, Casey, before we get into your personal experience of applying to and working in a clinic, I want to make sure everybody who's listening knows some key background about the particular clinic you're in, which is the Innocence Project. For any true crime fans out there, I hope that excites you.

You have probably already seen this clinic's work all over the news since they're just doing one amazing thing after another for their clients. So Casey, for those who may not know what kind of work the Innocence Project does, can you tell us about that?

CASEY SCHMIDT: Sure. So the name of the clinic kind of gives this away, but we really are working for proving the innocence of individuals, specifically we're working for the exoneration of wrongfully convicted clients here in Virginia. So these are typically people that have exhausted all of their direct appeals. They maintain their innocence throughout their criminal trial, throughout the appeals.

And we're in a lot of ways their sort of last hope at getting out, at getting exonerated.

NATALIE BLAZER: I was in my office a few weeks ago and right in the courtyard outside my office, they were doing a big story on some of the exonerees. And you just get chills. I mean, knowing that they are free and just knowing their story, it's heartbreaking obviously but also gratifying to see and knowing the work that the law school is doing for them.

I mean, to me, it's very obvious why someone would want to be in that type of work. But for you, personally, what made you decide to apply to the Innocence Project clinic?

CASEY SCHMIDT: The reason that I really enjoyed and decided to land on the Innocence Project's mission and their work was the criminal defense space has been interesting to me. But I think the cool thing about the Innocence Project is the fact that it's all post-conviction.

That's something that you don't get exposed to in most, if not any other classes in law school. And so learning about the different remedies that are very unique and available in the post-conviction space would be a cool opportunity. So everything from habeas petitions, petitions for writs of actual innocence, looking at executive options, like clemency and pardons, it's just a very different space.

And I thought it would be something that would be cool to be exposed to and to learn about while also really helping people. There is a lot on the line, and you can be a huge part in changing their life for the better.

NATALIE BLAZER: Completely life changing. I mean, I always say if I went back and did it all over again and went to law school, this would be one of the things that would motivate me to go to law school. And I think reading applications day in and day out, it is something that really draws people to the law.

I do want to touch on 1L participation. So I know in a lot of law schools, 1Ls don't really participate. So how did that work? Because that's really actually a rare opportunity to be able to do work with a clinic before you've even finished 1L year.

CASEY SCHMIDT: Right. So yeah. Most of the clinics are limited to 2 and 3Ls. But one of the great opportunities for 1Ls to get involved not just with this clinic but generally is through UVA's pro bono program, which is incredible. There's so many opportunities and so many different areas of law serving individuals both locally, nationally, internationally.

But one of the opportunities that I took advantage of was the pro bono clinic side of the Innocence Project. And so that is an opportunity that lets not only 1Ls but anyone at the law school that wants to be involved working still part of the organization and part of its mission can help out in the Pro Bono capacity.

And there's two wings to that. You can either be involved on the policy side, which is helping brainstorm, create draft legislative proposals that here in Virginia that can make a difference in the statutes for the remedies and the clients that we serve.

And then there's also the intake team, which is what I was a part of. And in that work, you're really doing the first level of review on clients' cases. So someone will write to the Innocence Project. They'll say their name. They'll say that they maintain their innocence.

They'll send you their case files. They'll fill out a questionnaire. And even as a 1L, you can be the first person that takes a look at that file. You read it. You try to figure out the facts, the procedural posture of the case, what's going on, what they're claiming.

And after doing a lot of that sort of analysis, you prepare a memo for the members of the clinic, laying out what you view as possible defense strategies. You give a recommendation for whether or not think the clinic should get a case or take this case. And then that's reviewed by one of the attorneys that's a faculty member and works on the clinic. And so you really have that role of looking at the case, the first set maybe of fresh eyes that has been on this case in years, maybe decades if there are sort of certain red flags that come up with police misconduct or photo IDs or junk science.

And you can be creative in thinking about what might the strategies be and then seeing whether or not the attorneys on the clinic agree. And if it is, then it becomes one of our full cases that we then work on in the clinic and can try to push forward.

NATALIE BLAZER: That's awesome. I mean, you're really having such an impact. Just the thought of somebody putting all together all those materials is heartbreaking. So I want to talk about the process aside from doing the Pro Bono work as a 1L.

So if you wanted to apply to a clinic at UVA as you mentioned rightfully so, full participation in the clinic is limited to 2Ls and 3Ls. So how does the application process work? Walk us through the timing and the components and things like that.

CASEY SCHMIDT: Sure. So I would say there's two types of clinics. So some are year long, and some are just a semester. So the year long ones, you're applying into for following year. The semester ones, you'd just be signing up for a semester.

For the ones that are either a fall clinic or a year long clinic, you would be applying to those over the summer with some exceptions. The application deadline is usually in June for those. For the spring clinics, you'd be applying with a deadline in September for then that spring semester that follows.

But I will note that there's actually quite a few clinics that you don't have to apply to. Those ones anyone can try to enroll through our lottery process, which is how students enroll in just all of the other non clinical just standard courses at the law school.

And so even in a world where you aren't someone who wants to fill out an application for a certain clinic, there's plenty of opportunities for you to just be able to rank it when you go to pick your normal classes and just be enrolled that way.

NATALIE BLAZER: A question I get a lot about clinics is how competitive is it to get into a clinic? So I think people have this idea in their mind that everyone's going to want to be in the clinic that they want to be in and how are they going to do it?

And what happens if for some reason you don't get your first choice the first time around? Are you guaranteed the second time around? Tell us a little about that.

CASEY SCHMIDT: Yeah. So I think going right off of what you said I think there is this conception when you're going into law school that everyone wants to do all of the same things that you want to do. I'm going to be fighting with all of my classmates to get these cool opportunities.

And I just think that couldn't be farther from the truth or the reality. People have so many different interests at this school. I mean, just as a baseline, there's a difference between folks who are more interested in transactional litigation, and then there's all of the different subareas, the types of law they want to do, the places they want to do it.

There's just not that sort of everyone stampeding towards one opportunity. And so you couple that with the fact that we have 24 clinics, and there really is something for everyone. You are able to find something that is in your interest.

But in the event that you sort of really want this clinic, you aren't able to get it, one of the great things is that because so many clinics allow both 2Ls and 3Ls, you can always apply again the next year for that opportunity. And of course, if you don't get it, there's always pro bono work that you can do on the side that might be in that area as well.

NATALIE BLAZER: I tell people that ask that. I say, if I'm doing my job correctly, people will have, like you said, diverse interests and varied interests and not everybody will have the same career goals and the same interests and the same academic exploration that they want to do. Right.

I can remember I couldn't imagine why anyone would want to do anything other than international human rights. That to me was the best one. But of course, that's not how it works out. People want Supreme Court, prosecution, juvenile justice. There's just so many-- like you said, something for everyone.

And I think clinics at the end of the day are also so much about skill building. Right. Even if you're not working on the exact substantive material you want, the ABA now has an experiential learning requirement for the skills that we kind of discussed earlier on your feet real world experience. So I think you're going to get that regardless.

CASEY SCHMIDT: If you want to be in a clinic, you can be in a clinic. I mean, it's really not a worry that I would have. Even if I might have had it two years ago when I was applying, it's certainly not one that I think anyone at UVA Law has about getting into a good clinic or probably even the clinic that they really want.

NATALIE BLAZER: So we've been talking about the Innocence Project clinic, which obviously is one that most people even who maybe aren't interested in law school know about and know what that is. And a lot of our other clinics we've talked about are litigation focused, prosecution, and defense. Right.

That's what people think of in the criminal space. Obviously, also, the Supreme Court clinic is what you think of as litigation. I think we also have a few-- if you're more interested in like transactional focus, don't we have a couple that are like that?

CASEY SCHMIDT: We definitely do. I think I would name the entrepreneurial law clinic and also, the non-profit clinic is giving a different side of the law. I think folks who are more interested in maybe regulatory or compliance or transactional work might find things interesting in that space as well.

NATALIE BLAZER: Got it. Got it. So we talked about earlier, I really liked how you put it, about the workload and the time commitment and how that compares to a more traditional classroom course. I understand that there has been a movement away from grades in some of the clinics.

And I would love for you to talk about maybe why that is and how that has impacted clinical work.

CASEY SCHMIDT: So yeah. That's right. So a lot of the clinics in just within the last year actually have shifted from being graded like a normal class on the traditional law school curve to being either on a credit, no credit, or a pass/fail/honors tier grading, which I think has been a really great shift for a lot of the clinics.

With those types of projects that you're working on, that sort of commitment to your client's work, to the work of the clinic doesn't necessarily translate as cleanly to one grade at the end of the semester as one paper does or one big exam does.

And so I think it really gives the folks who are instructing a lot more latitude, and it allows the people in it to maybe not have that kind of stress going into it.

NATALIE BLAZER: Definitely. The curve-- I mean, for those who don't know, there's a B plus curve in almost every law school class now.

CASEY SCHMIDT: Yeah. So it starts-- my understanding is for most of the 1L classes, it is. And then after 1L, the curve moves up and down based on whatever the average GPA is of the people in that class.

NATALIE BLAZER: And so yes. You could understand how for a clinic that model might not really work.

CASEY SCHMIDT: And there's so few people.

NATALIE BLAZER: So few people. Right. So one person has to get below a B plus, and it just doesn't make sense. So that makes me really happy to hear. I hope that will encourage more students to take advantage of clinics if they aren't already.

CASEY SCHMIDT: Literally, next Tuesday, one of the clinics is going to be before the United States Supreme Court arguing a case. And one of the professors is doing the oral argument. The students helped prep it. I mean, that's the sort of exposure and the level that our clinics operate on. And it doesn't get cooler than that. If you're a law student, you're a nerd like me.

NATALIE BLAZER: It really doesn't get cooler than that. Dan Ortiz has been around since I was a student, and that's a once in a lifetime. Once in a lifetime to be able to argue in front of the Supreme Court. I mean, that's just awesome.

So we should wrap up soon, and I want to ask you, Casey, since a lot of our listeners are thinking about applying to law school, what advice would you offer them someone who's currently applying to law school or planning to in the near future?

CASEY SCHMIDT: Yeah, I think the biggest thing that I would say is to take your time. Figure out if you want to gain some work experience beforehand and try some different things out with getting the LSAT score that you want and you need to go to the schools that you want to go to, with putting together your personal statements, with your supplements.

Law school is always going to be there. And I think it's really important making sure that you really do want to go to law school at this time at this place and having that sort of confidence going into it is much better in the long run than I think trying to rush into it you immediately or this cycle thinking you have to do it now.

NATALIE BLAZER: Absolutely. And I tell people all the time, if you're not sure that law school is right for you, I think working in a legal field is a great way to understand if it is for you. You can just go into it, as you said, more confident, more prepared. So that's great. Take your time.

I love that piece of advice. So I want to end on a high note, a fun note as I always try to do. Casey, do you have a favorite moment of law school so far? That can be in class, out of class, anything that sticks out to you in your sort of-- you're almost halfway through, which is crazy. Oh, gosh.

CASEY SCHMIDT: It's really crazy. I think 1L was so much fun. There's so many wonderful things that I could say to you about 1L. But I think one of the moments that really stands out to me is at the end of the first semester after everyone has finished all their finals, there's a huge celebration.

And having the whole community together, you're all done with your first semester, you did it, congratulating each other. But there's also so much support from all of the 2Ls and the 3Ls, people you've never met before saying, congratulations and coming up to you. It just creates a really special moment there at the end of the first semester. And I remember feeling how happy I was to be here.

NATALIE BLAZER: I just can't stop smiling, because it's so true. I have chills just remembering that. I'm so happy you're experiencing that in almost the exact same way that I feel I did. You have just worked so hard, it's a feeling of accomplishment and togetherness.

And gosh, it is just-- it's so special. So I love that you gave that example. Casey, this has been so much fun. Thank you again for coming on the show.

CASEY SCHMIDT: No, thank you so much for having me. It's been a blast.

NATALIE BLAZER: This has been Admissible with me Dean Natalie Blazer at the University of Virginia School of Law. My guest today was second year law student Casey Schmidt. For more information about clinics at UVA Law, please visit law.virginia.edu and click on the Academics tab.

The next episode of Admissible will be out soon. And in the meantime, you can follow the show on Instagram at Admissible podcast. Thanks so much for listening, and please remember to rate the show wherever you listen to podcasts.